Fgt001 heat controller security warning !

[samuelAN 1]

Hello

 

I had a very bad experience with the heat controller last night.

One of them is placed in a closed desk at 2nd floor. I have not noticed that the battery level was low yesterday (10%). At beginning of the night, the battery was fully discharged.

 

In this case, the behaviour of the heat controller seems to be : put in fully open position. This is not a good design choice, and this is very dangerous  : the radiator will heat without any temperature feedback!!. The temperature has risen all night long ... up to 50..60 degrees in the room. Some smoke has been generated when opening the door in the morning. I go rarely in this room... what if this situation was maintained all the day???

 

On the other side, this open valve mode is probably controlled by a microcontroller. What if any failure mode happen (even with battery fully charged), putting accidentally the valve in this mode??? Additionally in this mode, even with deported sensor, you will probably don't have any temp  feedback...

 

For me, this open valve mode is a huge human security lack which can result in catastrophic events . Imagine of the valve was installed in the baby room!!!!

 

My project of installing these valves in every room is paused now if no solution is found to avoid that!

[I.Srodka 4]

Hi @samuelAN!

 

I find your concerns a bit missed.

 

The battery level is known. What is more, the LED ring pulses red if the battery needs charging.

 

Moreover, your Z-Wave controller should be able to send a notification about low battery (Home Center can do that).

 

When that issue is tackled, the next thing is the state of the valve. Why should the valve be closed? It may be not the best idea to turn off the heating in child's room during the winter in some countries.

 

The valve will be opened totally to be easily removable. Finally, the device during its charging cycle doesn't operate the valve as well.

[enbemokel 7]

Hi SamuelAN,

 

I agree with I.Srodka.

You should install a second device, e.g. smoke sensor to control the temperature. Then you can set a trigger for any temperature you need and get an information.

Best regards

[samuelAN 1]

 

59 minutes ago, I.Srodka said:

Hi @samuelAN!

 

I find your concerns a bit missed.

 

The battery level is known. What is more, the LED ring pulses red if the battery needs charging.

 

Moreover, your Z-Wave controller should be able to send a notification about low battery (Home Center can do that).

 

When that issue is tackled, the next thing is the state of the valve. Why should the valve be closed? It may be not the best idea to turn off the heating in child's room during the winter in some countries.

 

The valve will be opened totally to be easily removable. Finally, the device during its charging cycle doesn't operate the valve as well.

 I don't agree with you at all.

 

The led pulse is useful when you can see it. And the red glows only if you touch the valve in my case...!

 

For the notifications you are right.. I have received a notification but not paid a lot of attention due to lack of time. I assumed that when the battery will be discharged... the valve will just stop to work... having a notification is a good thing, but it is not enough. The valve should be able to switch from itself in a safe operating mode... additionally if your valve is dead when you are in holiday.. will you come back home to recharge your valve?

 

Concerning the open valve mode, yes, I prefer that the room of my child lose 5-6 degrees in 12hours. My child will maybe end with a light cold . But will not end dead by suffocation under 60 degrees.. 

.. it makes sense!

 

I want just to make people aware that the valve is able to open the valve without any temp feedback. Which is not possible with classical mechanical thermostatic valve... for me it remains a main security issue.

 

On the other hand , working as electrical engineer, I can say that industrial microcontroller are not fully robust to machine state switching. Having a kind of failure able to fully open the valve is not very clean... this state should be avoided in any case, and replaced by fully closed state.

31 minutes ago, enbemokel said:

Hi SamuelAN,

 

I agree with I.Srodka.

You should install a second device, e.g. smoke sensor to control the temperature. Then you can set a trigger for any temperature you need and get an information.

Best regards

No, I will not buy a sensor to check that my thermostatic valve is operating normally...

[I.Srodka 4]

24 minutes ago, samuelAN said:

On the other hand , working as electrical engineer, I can say that industrial microcontroller are not fully robust to machine state switching. Having a kind of failure able to fully open the valve is not very clean... this state should be avoided in any case, and replaced by fully closed state.

First of all, why do you assume that the failure of the microcontroller will result in an open valve and not closed? If it is going to malfunction it will malfunction, I wouldn't find any scenario to be more probable.

 

24 minutes ago, samuelAN said:

The led pulse is useful when you can see it. And the red glows only if you touch the valve in my case...!

Of course it doesn't blink constantly, it blinks periodically every 30 seconds.

 

24 minutes ago, samuelAN said:

For the notifications you are right.. I have received a notification but not paid a lot of attention due to lack of time.

Now, taking into consideration the importance of it, you will take care of it better, and maybe adding more notifications is a good idea.

 

24 minutes ago, samuelAN said:

additionally if your valve is dead when you are in holiday

If it wasn't dead before holidays it really doesn't consume so much energy when in standby / holiday mode.

 

24 minutes ago, samuelAN said:

I want just to make people aware that the valve is able to open the valve without any temp feedback. Which is not possible with classical mechanical thermostatic valve... for me it remains a main security issue.

Our thermostatic head opens the valve because it closes itself so you could take it off and charge somewhere with a USB charger.

56 minutes ago, enbemokel said:

You should install a second device, e.g. smoke sensor to control the temperature. Then you can set a trigger for any temperature you need and get an information.

And just as it was suggested, in a smart home from our vision, you should have more than one temperature sensor in your room. It isn't so uncommon, our newer Door Window sensor has it, Motion Sensor has it, Smoke Sensor has it, and many other Z-Wave devices. Those devices can be used to monitor safety. And when you're out on vacation, you probably have your kid with you, or it has a babysitter : )

[samuelAN 1]

Quote

First of all, why do you assume that the failure of the microcontroller will result in an open valve and not closed? If it is going to malfunction it will malfunction, I wouldn't find any scenario to be more probable.

 

--> because fully open is a defined state in the sw statemachine (corresponding to standby mode). Not fully closed. Fully closed is a specific value of valve opening which is the output of the regulation.

Quote

Of course it doesn't blink constantly, it blinks periodically every 30 seconds.

 

 

--> I will check that, but I have not seen any blinking without touching the valve.

 

Quote

Now, taking into consideration the importance of it, you will take care of it better, and maybe adding more notifications is a good idea.

 

Hmmm.. yes probably..

 

Quote

If it wasn't dead before holidays it really doesn't consume so much energy when in standby / holiday mode.

 

--> What about being not  in standby mode? 

 

Quote

 

Our thermostatic head opens the valve because it closes itself so you could take it off and charge somewhere with a USB charger

 

--> I fully understand that. But it should be a specific locked state only available, for example, using the small key provided with the valve.

Edited January 4, 2018 by samuelAN

[enbemokel 7]

On 4.1.2018 at 12:02 PM, samuelAN said:

No, I will not buy a sensor to check that my thermostatic valve is operating normally...

 

Hi, it´s up to you so go on. But don´t mess with the system. I expect from a system that is responsible for heating that it will heat in case of problem.

If not and the radiator will freeze (may happen in colder regions of this world) you may have some water in your flat if it´s getting warmer later the week.

I don´t use the thermostatic head and don´t know if there is some mechanism to avoid this, like the standard thermostat heads.

 

But sure, I understand your concerns, that´s why I mentioned another sensor.

Have fun.