Heat Controller stop regulating

[meute 2]

Hi,

I have just put in service 8 "Heat Controller" with external temp sensor and the 2 or 3 first days the regulation was working, not very well, with big overshot and abnormal temperature variations ... but the valve motor was reacting to setpoint change and room temp change.

 

Today, since this morning, the 8 valve are not regulating anymore, if I force it to close > they close, if I force it to open > they open, but if I give a setpoint in "HEAT" mode the valves stay closed (for hours) and the setpoint is 3 or 4 °c higher than the measured room temperature.

 

The window opened sensor mode is completely disabled.

 

Calibrating again changes nothing, going to standby mode and come back to working mode changes also nothing.

 

I don't know how to make it working again, for sure a factory reset should help but in 2 or 3 days I will get the same problem, and if I made a factory reset I must reconfigure all that part in my Home controller system. (I use Jeedom).

 

Also it's not admissible that the only solution to upgrade the firmware is to use a fibaro HC ... If you sell modules with firmware bugs you must provide solution to update it to all customers and not only for the customers who use your HC. With special tool by USB or all other possible solutions. 

Edited January 11, 2018 by meute

[I.Srodka 4]

21 hours ago, meute said:

Also it's not admissible that the only solution to upgrade the firmware is to use a fibaro HC ... If you sell modules with firmware bugs you must provide solution to update it to all customers and not only for the customers who use your HC. With special tool by USB or all other possible solutions. 

In this case, once the new firmware will be deployed, you will be able to use standard warranty procedure:

you can return to the place you bought it and they will send it back to us for the update (free) or you can send it directly (one-way shipping cost to Poland).

[meute 2]

1 hour ago, I.Srodka said:

In this case, once the new firmware will be deployed, you will be able to use standard warranty procedure:

you can return to the place you bought it and they will send it back to us for the update (free) or you can send it directly (one-way shipping cost to Poland).

Hi,

 

You will be happy to hear that you managed to sell me a HC Lite controller that I will only use to update my fibaro modules when necessary (32 modules from you at this time, I let you imagine the conversion in € ...).

I have also some flickering problems with dimmer modules who are normally solved by an update and it's just not a good thing to dismount all the modules from inside the wall to send it to you, for the Heat Controller it's easy but for other modules it's not.

 

Thus the update will not be a problem for me anymore ... the main question now is when this update will be available ?

 

For now I force the FGT-001 top open completely from my Jeedom Home controller if the room temperature is 0.5°c lower than the setpoint and put it back to "Heat" mode in the other cases and this is solving temporarily the "under heating problem". 

 

But this don't solve the "over heating problem" that I have also, one of my HC have a setpoint at 20°c since 6 hours now and the room temp stay constant at 21.3°c (measured by the external sensor and other sensor) and the radiator stay hot enough to maintain 21.3°c. The Heat Controller seems to think that if there is no slope or edge measured on the room temp thus there is no need to open or close the valve without take in consideration that the room temp is not at the setpoint and this since a long time ...

 

If the "Over heating problem" become a bigger problem I will also force the valve to close when the room temp is above the setpoint by 0.5°c or 1°c but I don't do it for now because I don't want to get a system who become too unstable by entering in an oscillating loop and to preserve the battery life of the valves because open and close completely too often is for sure a battery killer.

 

I can also imagine that by forcing the complete opening of the Heat controller will fool the regulation and make it much worst than it is already but there is no other solution for now to use this product ...

 

Regards.

Edited January 12, 2018 by meute

[meute 2]

Hi,

 

Come-on Fibaro, I'm ready !!! 

 

I have just received and started my new HCL and included one spare FGT-001, I'm now ready to make update of my fibaro modules ... 

 

I don't plan to use the HCL, for me it will be only a tool to update my Fibaro modules because I'm happy with my actual domotic system based on Jeedom and I really need some functionality that Fibaro box can't offer.

 

Do you have a ETA for the bug correcting firmware for FGT ? I don't request precise day and hour ... I only want to know if we can expect it during the next days, weeks, or months ...

Edited January 13, 2018 by meute

[petergebruers 1,261]

On 1/12/2018 at 1:43 PM, meute said:

I can also imagine that by forcing the complete opening of the Heat controller will fool the regulation and make it much worst than it is already but there is no other solution for now to use this product ...

Maybe there is a better way, but I havent tried it. Based on observations by a few other forum members and me, the FGT starts regulating again if you "turn the knob" or send a different setpoint. So sending "max open" does the trick, but possibly  "T+0.5" then five seconds later the original "T" works as well. I used to turn the knob one notch up and one back, and 5 seconds after doing so it adjusted the valve. So this might give you better regulation while we are waiting on an update...

Edited January 13, 2018 by petergebruers

[meute 2]

I have already tested this and for example when the room temp is 2° under the setpoint since a very long time and that the valve stay desperately closed, a set point change make sometimes move the valve, sometimes not but always not enough to go out of the dead stroke.

 

For now the tricks I use seems to work very well.

For example :

- My controller schedule change the setpoint from 18°c from the night mode to 21°c or 22°c  for the day

- My controller see directly that the delta is bigger than 0.5°c and force the HC in "Full Open" (If I don't do this then the valve stay closed again for Hours) 

- During the first hours the temp is rising continuously and as fast as possible because the valve is fully opened

- The set-point minus 0.5° is reach and my controller put the valve in "Heat" and every time the valve is closing completely directly

- Inertia push the room temp generally to setpoint minus 0.2°c but the valve stay closed during this time.

- The room temps decrease slowly to set-point minus 0.5° because the valve is closed and my controller force again in "Full Open" and the room temp have never the time to go to setpoint minus 0.6°c.

-  I can clearly see on my room temp diagram that with this trick the temp is variating with a constant period between setpoint minus 0.2°c and setpoint minus 0.5°c.

- And like a miracle,  sometimes after 5 or 6 hours of that game and with the same setpoint the HC finish to successfully maintain the room temp itself without need to force to open again until the next big setpoint change, sometimes it seems that it make it very well and other times with 1 or 1.5°c of constant over-heating.

 

It's seems that the algorithm don't handle correctly big deltas between room temp and setpoint or really really too slowly, nobody want the requested room temp 8 or 10 hours too late ... forcing manually the HC to reach the set-point seems to really help it to sometimes regulate pretty much.

Edited January 13, 2018 by meute

[petergebruers 1,261]

Thank you for sharing your observations. You clearly spent a lot of time on a workaround. I think two things are worth keeping in my mind. Fibaro says it is a PID so I assume it is self learning and I do not know how the bug affects this. Secondly, it is battery operated so they might have added some logic to delay or limit movement. I can say it is more responsive than my older valves. Another user posted, the FGT seems to respond reliably to max and min commands so that agrees with your observations. Because it is a FLiRS I guess your workaround acts as a DIY hysteretic control... Using a lot more components than a bimetallic switch. But if it works.........

[meute 2]

Finally the trick is working when the room is coolest to be sure to reach the setpoint but after nothing is working anymore.

 

This morning all my rooms are at least 2° above the day setpoint and all the valve stay open and during this night all the setpoints was about  2° under the day setpoints but all the valve are stayed opened and all the rooms temp have reached at least 4° above the setpoint.

 

Now it's the day setpoint and all the valves keep heating too much with a room temps between 2° and 4° above the setpoint, nothing is closing or not enough and all the room temp are still continue to increase. To stop this crazy over-temp I must pass all the valve myself in "Off", there is no other solution.

 

Also during the night the outdoor temp is falling from 8° to about 0° and thus the heating curve of the boiler give a water hotter and with all the valves opened too much you can imagine at which speed and which level the room temp can increase ... the valve must at least react to that and fast.

 

My home temperature is now so high that I need a swimsuit !

Edited January 14, 2018 by meute

[meute 2]

What I have done now :

 

- If Room temp <= setpoint - 1.0°c then Force "Open" Mode
- If Room temp > setpoint - 1.0°c and < setpoint -0.5°c then change nothing, the HC will be in "Heat" mode or "Open" Mode in this range
- If Room temp >= setpoint -0.5°c and <= setpoint +0.5°c then "Heat" Mode
- If Room temp < setpoint + 1°c and > setpoint + 0.5°c then change nothing, the HC will be in "Heat" mode or "Off" Mode in this range
- If Room temp >= setpoint + 1.0°c then "Off" Mode

 

Like that I have an hysteresis who is working between the 3 Modes of the HC.

Rooms temp are all measured by Oregon sensors who report every 30s and this sensors are all placed exactly at the same place as the HC External sensors thus the reported temp between both sensor is almost the same at +-0.2°c

 

Lets see how it work now and how much time the HC request to be able to work alone between setpoint + 1°c and setpoint - 1°c if he can ...

 

I don't know if this type of trick can be done on a Fibaro HC Lite or HC2 but in Jeedom it's easy to play this type of game, there is almost no limitations.

 

If this help me to wait for the update I will be happy even if I need to charge the battery every 2 or 4 weeks because of that ...

Edited January 14, 2018 by meute

[svaleb 5]

Well, we can now send back the thermostat when the problem is solved, great !

I would like to know if the temperature setpoint is reported back to the system when the thermostat is changed manually ?

This way you would know if someone had changed the temperatur to something else.

I have a VERA and the thermostat is only working partly (vera problem with integrating fibaro) so I dont know how it SHOULD work.

I understand that for now the temperature at the valve is not shown.

If it was shown a lot of problems would be solved and you would not need extra sensors to know if it is working.

I hope FIBARO makes it possible ! !!

Maybe it could be made possible to put in an offset temp. to some rooms.

Personally I am not happy with the coulorcodes and would prefer ciffers but I could live with that if the thermostat worked otherwise.

Guests does not understand the coulorcoding.

I have visitors in rooms not often used, the thermostat will be set to "off" when the room is not in use (by the way, what is the frost protection temperature, and does it work ?)

I set up the temperatur the day before guests arrive and set it back when they leave, and I would like to know if they had changed the temperature.

 

[meute 2]

2 hours ago, svaleb said:

I would like to know if the temperature setpoint is reported back to the system when the thermostat is changed manually ?

 

Sometimes yes, and sometimes no, best way is to pool the HC setpoint with the z-wave controller at specific interval but the latency for the response make difficult to detect between a "manual modification of the setpoint", a "not yet applied setpoint from Z-wave" or a "missed setpoint command" because this happened to me also, thus now I pool the setpoint and if It's different from the one I want I send again the command

Thus for now on my setup if someone is changing it manually from the knob the controller set it back to the managed setpoint after some minutes.

 

I don't know yet if the "missed setpoint command" i have experienced is the fault of the HC or the fault of implementation of the HC inside Jeedom and Open-Z-wave.

 

 Thus It's possible but your script or scene who will manage this must be smart enough to handle this.

Edited January 15, 2018 by meute

[poseidon 1]

I've change 6 heat controller with sensor and I have the same problem. They didn't work at schedule mode and each morning it's very cold in my house.

When did you expect that a firmware become available ?

[meute 2]

On 14/01/2018 at 2:14 PM, meute said:

What I have done now :

 

- If Room temp <= setpoint - 1.0°c then Force "Open" Mode
- If Room temp > setpoint - 1.0°c and < setpoint -0.5°c then change nothing, the HC will be in "Heat" mode or "Open" Mode in this range
- If Room temp >= setpoint -0.5°c and <= setpoint +0.5°c then "Heat" Mode
- If Room temp < setpoint + 1°c and > setpoint + 0.5°c then change nothing, the HC will be in "Heat" mode or "Off" Mode in this range
- If Room temp >= setpoint + 1.0°c then "Off" Mode

 

Like that I have an hysteresis who is working between the 3 Modes of the HC.

Rooms temp are all measured by Oregon sensors who report every 30s and this sensors are all placed exactly at the same place as the HC External sensors thus the reported temp between both sensor is almost the same at +-0.2°c

 

Lets see how it work now and how much time the HC request to be able to work alone between setpoint + 1°c and setpoint - 1°c if he can ...

 

I don't know if this type of trick can be done on a Fibaro HC Lite or HC2 but in Jeedom it's easy to play this type of game, there is almost no limitations.

 

If this help me to wait for the update I will be happy even if I need to charge the battery every 2 or 4 weeks because of that ...

This tricks is working very well ...

For big setpoint jumps bewteen heating modes, the room temp is rising as fast as possible with valve fully opened, and is falling too with valve fully closed.

At setpoint the bad behaviour of regulation is limited by the boundaries I give, sometimes the room temp is oscillating between about the setpoint and setpoint-1°c, sometimes between about the setpoint and setpoint+1c° and sometimes the HC is finally doing its job and room temp is oscillating less than 0.5° around the setpoint without need to force to open or close the valve but never during more than 1 or 2 hours, after that the regulation lose once more the tracking and reach again the upper or lower boundaries.

 

The result is the same for my 7 HC installed in 6 rooms (one room have 2 HC but I manage them together)

 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by meute

[Guest kallecux]

@Poseidon I can confirm this behavior and ask fibaro to make a statement regarding an expected firmware update.

 

Especially in this time of year, the malfunction of the controller is very annoying!

[Gianluca S. 1]

...What is not acceptable is that after 1 months no fix and no forecast to fix are delivered.

Im disappointed....

[poseidon 1]

7 minutes ago, Gianluca S. said:

...What is not acceptable is that after 1 months no fix and no forecast to fix are delivered.

Im disappointed....

 

I'm disappointed too and more after buying smoke sensor that report false alarm and no upgraded products are available

What's the matter with Fibaro ?

[Gianluca S. 1]

On 14/1/2018 at 2:14 PM, meute said:

What I have done now :

 

- If Room temp <= setpoint - 1.0°c then Force "Open" Mode
- If Room temp > setpoint - 1.0°c and < setpoint -0.5°c then change nothing, the HC will be in "Heat" mode or "Open" Mode in this range
- If Room temp >= setpoint -0.5°c and <= setpoint +0.5°c then "Heat" Mode
- If Room temp < setpoint + 1°c and > setpoint + 0.5°c then change nothing, the HC will be in "Heat" mode or "Off" Mode in this range
- If Room temp >= setpoint + 1.0°c then "Off" Mode

 

Like that I have an hysteresis who is working between the 3 Modes of the HC.

Rooms temp are all measured by Oregon sensors who report every 30s and this sensors are all placed exactly at the same place as the HC External sensors thus the reported temp between both sensor is almost the same at +-0.2°c

 

Lets see how it work now and how much time the HC request to be able to work alone between setpoint + 1°c and setpoint - 1°c if he can ...

 

I don't know if this type of trick can be done on a Fibaro HC Lite or HC2 but in Jeedom it's easy to play this type of game, there is almost no limitations.

 

If this help me to wait for the update I will be happy even if I need to charge the battery every 2 or 4 weeks because of that ...

 

Hi Meute,

Can u share with us the LUA/CONFIG of this scene?

 

Thanks in advance

regards

Gianluca

 

 

[petergebruers 1,261]

3 minutes ago, Gianluca S. said:

Can u share with us the LUA/CONFIG of this scene?

 

He probably can't, because he is not using a Home Center (it is a Jeedom)... But you can try my approach posted here:

 

 

[meute 2]

1 hour ago, Gianluca S. said:

 

Hi Meute,

Can u share with us the LUA/CONFIG of this scene?

 

Thanks in advance

regards

Gianluca

 

 

Hi Gianluca

 

Unfortunately as Petergebruers say, I can't because I not use a Fibaro Home Center, I use only Fibaro for it's modules. My Home Center is powered by Jeedom.

 

Like I have no experience with Fibaro Home Center I can't help you with this, I just bought and started a Fibaro HCL for the first time this week-end but it's only to be able to update my fibaro modules and mostly for the FGT-001 when the new firmware will be available.

Edited January 17, 2018 by meute

[rhutin91 0]

My valves are also slow to react.

It looks like the PID feedback parameters of the heat controller are very poorly designed (or designed to a slow response).

It'll be very nice to get access to the parameters and to be able to adapt them to your situation instead of doing the full process thru a script which requires a lot of transmissions and probably reduced the battery life

 

Regards

Remi

[meute 2]

Not everyone is able to handle PID parameters, do a hysteresis control is easy but tune a PID control loop requires some special skills ... I am an automation engineer so I know what a PID loop is ...

 

I'm pretty sure that Fibaro will correct the problem and will finally do an auto-tuned PID loop who is working ... others do it with success.
And if they want to continue to sell this product there is no other choice ...