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Fibaro TRVs not opening rad valves


h2009

Question

Hello 

 

Wondering if someone can help me please. I've setup my zoned heating in HC2 heating panel and all my TRVs have external sensors which are reporting the temperatures correctly; however the issue I'm having is that the TRV's aren't opening the valves enough to allow the water to pass through the valves and hense there is no heating. 

 

Can anyone suggest a fix for this - noting that I've got 22 TRVs to do this on. 

 

A manual method is to turn the TRVs to max which allows the water to pass through. 

 

Its worth noting that I was using Call For Heat Scene script by Dave Harrison however it was only running through the script once then never again. 

 

HC2 - Firmware Latest 

TRVs - Firmware Latest  

Boiler Receiver - HRT4 

 

Relay script: 

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3 hours ago, h2009 said:

however the issue I'm having is that the TRV's aren't opening the valves enough to allow the water to pass through the valves and hense there is no heating

 

Hi,

welcome to my problem too :)

Having 21 in room and target being 22, the valve is barely opened and radiator is almost cold. No chance to rise the temperature to the setpoint.

The correct way is to fully open the valve and when the target is achieved, to close it.

 

You can see it here...

 

Their algorithm ca be OK only for "general heating system" (permanent heat) but not for "individual gas central" (heating on demand).

Maybe with the current algorithm, the inertia will rise the temp to the setpoint but being on individual gas central it means spending gas and electricity and even so, it will not achieve the setpoint.

The solution can be to implement a parameter for setting the usage: general heating or individual gas central.

 

@Dave Harrison and @petergebruers (and maybe others) are trying a lot of workarounds to solve @Fibaro TRV's issues but unfortunately (for us) they cannot cover all our needs... I thank them for all their effort!

 

 

Edited by adyboss
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the same goes for popp valves

I solved it, increasing 1ºc of the popp temperature sensor
in this way it is safe that the valve is open when the temperature demands

 

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1º difference is not appreciated at room temperature

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  • Hi rls46 

    If you increase the valve temperature does that not make the valve less open? I would have thought a greater negative number would have done this? 

     

    However its a clever fix for the moment! I'll give it a try when I can. 

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    2 hours ago, rls46 said:

    I solved it, increasing 1ºc of the popp temperature sensor

     

    45 minutes ago, h2009 said:

    If you increase the valve temperature does that not make the valve less open? I would have thought a greater negative number would have done this? 

     

     

    I believe -1... :)

    In this way the temp sensors present a lower temp but... the TRV (the knob) will use this? Or only the heating panel?

     

    Also... what we'll do with the temp presented on screens - tablet, thermostat, phone, UI (being less with 1 oC)?

    Edited by adyboss
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    set offset +1 only increases the value of the temperature as data for the system, does not interfere with the valve.

    for that reason to 'cheat' the system with +1 º is sure that the valve is open when there is demand

    works for me like this with this method for a long time

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  • What is strange for me is that when I enter a temperature on my system and save the offset always defaults to 0 (i.e. original). Anyone else have this issue? 

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    3 hours ago, rls46 said:

    the same goes for popp valves

    I solved it, increasing 1ºc of the popp temperature sensor
    in this way it is safe that the valve is open when the temperature demands

     

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    1º difference is not appreciated at room temperature

     

    Still... I don't see how this will solve the problem for gas central heating.

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    Is this your problem?
    -TRV set at 22º
    -The temperature of the TRV indicates 21.9
    -starts heat demand
    -the TRV valve is closed slightly open

     

    if this is the case
    when setting temperature offset + 1º, the temperature sensor indicates to the system 22,9º (real 21,9º), there is no demand.
    When the tempearture sensor indicates 21.9º (real 20.9º) and demands heat, the TRV valve will be open. (That's why I said that 1º of difference in ambient temperature is not appreciated)
    I use this system with (12) popp valves a long time ago and it works very well, the valve is always open when it demands heat. My heating system is diesel.

    If this is not the problem, I'm sorry, that's what I understood.

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  • See I'm not sure this is working with HC TRV's. 

    I'll give you 2 examples in the image: 

     

    So at the moment my gas boiler is on:

    Bedroom 5 radiator is hot - TRV set to 21c but sensors is 21.9

    Bedroom 6 radiator is stone cold - TRV set 21c but sensors is 16.9c

    Bedroom 2 radiator is stone cold - TRV set 21c but sensors (with offset of 3c) is 23.2c however from my motion sensor the room temp is 21.3c (not used for the TRV)

     

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    21 minutes ago, rls46 said:

    when setting temperature offset + 1º, the temperature sensor indicates to the system 22,9º (real 21,9º), there is no demand.
    When the tempearture sensor indicates 21.9º (real 20.9º) and demands heat, the TRV valve will be open

     

    But telling to the system a higher temperature, the system will inform the TRV to close the valve, right?

    So, if I need 22º, when sensor indicates 21.9º (real is 20.9º), the valve will be almost closed, right? And I will keep under real 21º... I cannot increase it.

     

    Should't tell a lower temp to force the system to open the valve?

    if I need 22º, when sensor indicates 21º (real is 22º), the valve will just start to close (its bad algorithm to close it too early!)... but the real temp will be achieved. 

    Unfortunately, in this case the central gas will "burn" until sensor indicate 22º (real 23º).

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  • Ok I think I've got you, e.g: 

     

    TRV set to 21c 

    Real temp say 21c

    Sensor 20c (offset -1c) 

    TRV = slightly open 

     

    TRV set to 21c 

    Real temp say 20c

    Sensor 19c (offset -1c) 

    TRV = open 

     

    TRV set to 21c 

    Real temp say 22c

    Sensor 21c (offset -1c) 

    TRV = closed 

     

    correct? 

     

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    14 minutes ago, h2009 said:

    Bedroom 2 radiator is stone cold - TRV set 21c but sensors (with offset of 3c) is 23.2c however from my motion sensor the room temp is 21.3c (not used for the TRV)

     

    It's normal, because the system knows 23 (>21)

     

    14 minutes ago, h2009 said:

    Bedroom 6 radiator is stone cold - TRV set 21c but sensors is 16.9c

     

    Here you can have the problem with the valve not responding. @petergebruers has developed a workaround (nudging).

     

    14 minutes ago, h2009 said:

    Bedroom 2 radiator is stone cold - TRV set 21c but sensors (with offset of 3c) is 23.2c however from my motion sensor the room temp is 21.3c (not used for the TRV)

     

    It's normal, because the system knows 23.2 (>21)

    6 minutes ago, h2009 said:

    Ok I think I've got you, e.g: 

     

    TRV set to 21c 

    Real temp say 21c

    Sensor 20c (offset -1c) 

    TRV = slightly open 

     

    TRV set to 21c 

    Real temp say 20c

    Sensor 19c (offset -1c) 

    TRV = open 

     

    TRV set to 21c 

    Real temp say 22c

    Sensor 21c (offset -1c) 

    TRV = closed 

     

    correct? 

     

    And what about the boiler? It should start to heat under 21 but stop over 21.

    In case 1 it will heat but TRV temp (21) measured on sensor will not be achieved...

    In case 2 will heat

    In case 3 will not heat. But how it can achieved this case if Case 1 will not finish heating to 21?

    Edited by adyboss
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    I think you think that the TRV valve works with the temperature of the sensor and should not be the case.
    In TRV popp opens and closes the valve according to its own actual measurement of the temperature of the room (always real), that is why the temperature sensor of the room in the heat panel adds + 1º, thus the system will demand heat a degree higher than the temperature of the TRV, that assures me that the valve is open when there is demand.
    Surely TRV fibaro works the same as popp.

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    @rls46 yes!

     

    I've been around here for a while and I think "temperature control" is a tough subject. Much tougher to grasp and understand than electricity. It is more difficult to measure stuff...

     

    I do not want to underestimate anyone of you... I just want to start at the basics to make sure everyone is at the same level of understanding by the end of this post.

     

    This is copy/paste with some rework from my previous posts... I'll keep repeating and improving the explanation until everyone understands it... To my knowledge, no one on this forum has attempted to explain heating systems... until now. So please bear with me... I am not a heating specialist, but an engineer and passionate about HA so boiler control and temperature is part of my hobby.

     

    Let's get some things straight.

     

    • The FGT is a THERMOSTAT. Popp, Danfoss Licing Connect, Eurotronic TRVS, they are all THERMOSTATS. Technically, they are not "valves", they are "thermostatic heads" attached to a valve. It is customary to refer to the assembly (head + valve) as a "Thermostatic Radiator Valve" or TRV.
    • I will use TRV if I refer to some sort of thermostat to control water flow. I will use FGT or FGT-001 when I talk about the "Fibaro Heat Controller". I will NEVER refer to the FGT as the "HC" because that abbreviation is used quite a lot on this forum to reference the "Fibaro Home Center". If I accidentally use HC in a topic about heating, I mean "Home Center". I'll try to avoid that...
    • They do NOT use your controller, to regulate temperature. They do not use any sensor measurement of your Z-Wave system. They contain their own sensor (or sensors!) and the FGT has an optional external probe. That probe is not Z-Wave, it is Bluetooth Low Energy. But the measurements are transferred to your controller, by the FGT. So reporting from the external sensor to the FGT is fairly frequent (every 10 minutes) but reporting by the TRV to your 
    • You tell the FGT to go to 22 °C and it does that for you. It does not need a controller or a temperature reference, nor does it need a room thermostat and you also do not have to buy the external probe... It is an autonomous system. It uses hot water and a battery to control room temperature.
    • The FGT-001 can either use its internal sensor or the special extra bluetooth low energy "button" external probe. The extra sensor can be in a more optimal place: the right height, no direct sunlight, nearer to the spot where you want to control temperature. With this probe, the FGT starts reporting temperature too. It reports to the TRV every 10 minutes. To conserve power and reduce network traffic, the FGT only sends temperature to the controller every 2-3 hours or when the temperature readings differ by 0.5-1 degree from the last report.
    • You can turn the KNOB to change the set point. No magic involved. For instance. Turn the ring until it displays "cyan" and it will regulate the valve, until the temperature averages 18 °C. It does not need the extra sensor, because there is one (actually two) and the device itself has an algorithm to go to the set temperature. It also does not really need a controller, all magic is performed by the micro-controller onboard.
    • Your TRV does not need a connection to a controller to do its job. You can install a TRV, set the thing to 24 °C if you like that, and it will start to open and close the valve. So you can check the performance of your TRV by leaving it excluded. This will make sure it is not a communication problem, or a script changing the set-point. Of course, this degrades it to "a mechanical thermostatic head" - but we managed to live with that kind of control, did we not?
    • You get more interesting possibilities, with a Z-Wave controller. You can send temperature settings to the controller via your app, or using the browser interface. Like: "go to 23 °C for 4 hours". Because FGT-001 is a FLiRS (frequently listening routing slave) device, roughly one second after you change the temperature, it will take into account your new target value! So there is no "wake up" interval (and delay) like ordinary battery operated device. Older TRVs are not FLIRS so they kind of "request settings at regular intervals" - otherwise know as "wake up interval". To my best knowledge, the only other FLiRS device on the market is the "Spirit Z-Wave Plus". Danfoss has announced the LC14, it should be FLiRS based but I don't think you can buy one yet.
    • Some part of slowness of the "older TRVs" comes from the wake up interval. The FGT-001 has eliminated that. It will respond to commands "almost instantly".
    • You have your TRV to a Z-Wave controller? So now you have a "remote control" for your thermostat. It still does not need your controller or a temperature sensor to control the temperature. Sometimes, it is more convenient to use your phone or a tablet. But it's not real automation (yet). Communication is bidirectional: the controller can set the TRVs set-point and the TRV will report the set-point if someone turns the knob. The FGT-001 also reports temperature if it has an external sensor. It DOES NOT report sensor data without external sensor. To me, this makes totally sense, because the sensor is not in a good position to detect room temperature. I have dedicated a separate topic to this. Popp is a modified Danfoss TRV. It reports temperature, but depending on your house and position of the TRV, its temperature reporting will not match the temperature at a key point in your room... If you want to know more, please read my other topic... 

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    • The next step would be to use the heating panel. The heating panel is nothing but a scheduler. It contains time/temperature settings. And all it does is send the schedule to the TRV. Again, the FGT is fully autonomous after it receives the schedule. Older thermostats get only a set-point change. The FGT-001 gets a complete schedule. The effect is largely the same. You can override the schedule by turning the knob, or by using the app. You get manual override and holiday mode as a bonus. You need to understand the concept of zones and rooms and maybe take into account that one FGT remote sensor can send temperature to three FGT-001 heads. It might be a little bit more complex than I suggest... one thing that trips people is how "time" plays a role in overriding the schedule.
    • If this still isn't enough control, you can use Lua to send a set-point to the TRV. Even in this case, you still do not need an extra temperature measurement... The FGT is FLiRS and responds almost instantly to your commands. The older valves get a setting at the next wake-up (typically set to anything between 5 an 30 minutes). Of course, you can use some sensor in the room to estimate the performance of the TRV and nudge the set-point up and down, to compensate for the fact the TRV is not in a good position to measure room temperature. I do not present scripts to do this... You can use Lua with or without the heating panel,. If you want to make your own scheduler, you can do that, no need to configure the heating panel.
    • All it needs is... a steady source of hot water and battery. And this brings us to the issue of room thermostat and boiler control. The boiler should take care of the hot water problem. It has a boiler thermostat, and possibly some settings and maybe an external probe. You see, I do not mention a "room thermostat" when I talk about boiler control, this is intentional. Please read on.
    • If your boiler is less than about 20 years old, and you already have Thermostatic Radiator Valves on all radiators, then you almost certainly do not need a room thermostat, so please remove your room thermostat. You also do not need scripts and relays to control your boiler. This is a general advice. It *always* surprises people. It seems like magic, no boiler control and no room thermostat, yet the idea behind it is simple... Please give it some thought then fully dismiss the idea if you do not like it. Like electrical systems, heating systems come in to many variants. To give 100% accurate advice, you'll have to tell a lot more and I cannot answer all questions, that's what a heating specialist is for... Also, you do whatever you want so below you'll find scripts for boiler control anyway. Instead of a room thermostat, I recommend an outside probe to help your boiler controller to determine the optimal water temperature. Again, if it is less than 20 years old you either already have one or your boiler controller has an input to attach one.
    • For sake of completeness... other TRV systems exist. If you are interested in a mains operated, completely silent actuator (not a thermostat!) look up "thermoelectric actuator". notice: "actuator" is not "thermostat"... You need a thermostat to control that kind of actuator.

     

    There is one rather peculiar device on the market, which causes a lot of confusion: "Danfoss RS 014G0160 Thermostat". On a HC 4.160 you can use this as a kind of remote control. It does not act as a real thermostat, because the device does not control any output (on a home center). You can use Lua to intercept "value" and "timestamp" as with any other thermostat.

     

    At the moment (2018-02-04), your FGT-001 might not performe as expected, but this has nothing to do with the previous explanation:

     

    • FGT-001  FW 4.0 can crash "open" or "closed".
    • The issue was confirmed by Fibaro on december, 19 of 2017. I'll put a link to that post below.
    • Some people seem to very happy with this FGT, it does not seem as if all users are affected.
    • I wrote this long post, plus follow up, because depending on your setup, you might not notice the crashes, or they simply work for you.
    • Fibaro has identified "a bad calculation" and is preparing and testing a new firmware, OTA, for all HC users.
    • There is no official ETA but support told me "to be fixed in Q1 2018".

     

     

    Everyone still with me?

     

    Any questions? Go ahead! There are no stupid questions... I learn from people asking questions, either because it makes me formulate the answer or makes me aware of things I do not know! Thats good!

    Edited by petergebruers
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    you can not explain it better @petergebruers
    for all this, the solution that works for me is to increase a degree in the temperature sensor that manages the heating panel.

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    5 minutes ago, rls46 said:

    for all this, the solution that works for me is to increase a degree in the temperature sensor that manages the heating panel.

     

    Thank you for the compliment.

     

    To avoid confusion... Do you mean you have a sensor, then use scripts to change the heating panel? As far as I can tell, the heating panel does not take input from a sensor at all, it is just a bunch of target temperatures (set-point numbers) and points in time, so I am a bit confused. This is good, it means I either do not understand something or I did not yet entangle all aspects of heating control ;-) So please tell me about that sensor...

     

     

     

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    in a while I explain myself better, now I'm installing a 0-10v wind direction sensor ;D

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    11 minutes ago, rls46 said:

    now I'm installing a 0-10v wind direction sensor ;D

     

    Have fun! Or should I say... good luck? ;-)

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