Heating Control from Scratch

[alex88 70]

I'm putting it out there to anyone that can help with my heating solution.

My situation is that I have a mid-terrace house with approx 12 radiators installed in 10 rooms including bathrooms. I have a combi-boiler that is controlled via a battery operated thermostat which I suspect simply sends a signal to turn the boiler on or off based on the temperature threshold that I program it with.

I would like to be able to measure the temperature within each room and turn on or off the radiator in that room when I need to, for example, if one or more radiators need to be turned on then the boiler will turn on and those radiators will turn on. Otherwise the boiler will be off and the radiators will all be off.

My other requirement is that everything be mains powered. I will make sure that I can make mains cabling available where ever possible, however the solution has to be reasonable in its requirements for cabling as exposing new mains cable will cost quite a bit extra.

I do not have any allegiance to any manufacturer and am willing to take on which ever technologies I need to make a stable system.

Can you please suggest a working, stable solution that integrates well with Fibaro, will not cost be an arm and a leg and will be manageable to implement, configure and maintain?

Please consider that from my research and given that I can not re-zone my house (the heating currently works off of a single loop) it seems like the best solution would be to install some type of TRV *thermal regulating valve" at each radiator and have Fibaro HC2 control these based on individual temp sensor readings used in conjunction with scenes. That said, I do not want to tell you how I should do this, but instead get your advice of the best solution for me.

Finally, I like the idea of having override capability in some rooms via a temperature control units like this one (

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) that I am planning on installing in a bathroom when I get under floor heating installed, but i can't see how this would work with Fibaro.

I know this is a big set of questions, so if there are any how-to guides out there that you know of please direct me to them.

Thanks in advance!

[stevenvd 51]

I was thinking about the Danfoss Link RS to, but I think they are not compatible with anything else than their own Danfoss Link CC...

They both use z-wave, but Danfoss uses a specific command set on top of the normal command set that they won't give away.

If you get it to work; please let me know, as I would really like to use them!

[Guest MitchellOnline]

I was thinking about the Danfoss Link RS to, but I think they are not compatible with anything else than their own Danfoss Link CC...

They both use z-wave, but Danfoss uses a specific command set on top of the normal command set that they won't give away.

If you get it to work; please let me know, as I would really like to use them!

I would also like to use them, but as @BVD says, I don't think Danfoss will let Link RS interact with the HC2 by Z-Wave.

[alex88 70]

Hi

Could any of the owners of the Danfoss Living Connect explain what functionality works with HC2 and what functionality works directly on the device itself when connected to the HC2?

I have just watched a couple of youtube clips showing how the Danfoss units work when managed on the device specifically I just wonder how any settings on the device work in-conjunction with the HC2 or do they just act like thermometers and shut-off valves.

Also, given that the unit and hence thermometer is sitting right next to the radiator does it actually act as a good measure of room temperature?

Cheers

Aleks

[BvD 0]

Hi Amilanov,

I've got 6 Danfoss Living Connect radiator valves and 1 Danfoss Boiler Relay.

They all show up correctly in HC2.

The radiator valves can be controlled by HC2; only setpoint, no actual temp.

The only feedback you get from the valves is changes in setpoint. Works well, but keep in mind the wake-up interval.

Same counts for the boiler relay, like any relay you can switch on/off. I attached on/off images for it.

All together it's not enough to setup a heating panel. Real temp info you need to get from a room sensor. As explained before the Danfoss RS sensors don't work, so I shipped them back (>500 euro!). Now I need to find/create other solution for real temp info. Would be nice to have something like the Danfoss ones: z-wave, temp sensor, temp display, battery powered.

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[Guest MitchellOnline]

Hi Amilanov,

I've got 6 Danfoss Living Connect radiator valves and 1 Danfoss Boiler Relay.

They all show up correctly in HC2.

The radiator valves can be controlled by HC2; only setpoint, no actual temp.

The only feedback you get from the valves is changes in setpoint. Works well, but keep in mind the wake-up interval.

Same counts for the boiler relay, like any relay you can switch on/off. I attached on/off images for it.

All together it's not enough to setup a heating panel. Real temp info you need to get from a room sensor. As explained before the Danfoss RS sensors don't work, so I shipped them back (>500 euro!). Now I need to find/create other solution for real temp info. Would be nice to have something like the Danfoss ones: z-wave, temp sensor, temp display, battery powered.

I use the Everspring ST814, which is placed in every room. It measures temperature and humidity.

See:

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[BvD 0]

But look at the Danfoss one!

Very nice designed, but only usable as drink coasters when combined with HC2

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[Guest MitchellOnline]

But look at the Danfoss one!

Very nice designed, but only usable as drink coasters when combined with HC2

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Yes, but you can not blame Fibaro for this, Danfoss is the problem. They want you to buy their controller.

[stevenvd 51]

Which is also *. You can only set two temperatures per room...

I figured a way to fix the whole problem in a way that you only need the fibaro and and Ipod touch.

It is quite easy to write an app that reads out the xml from the HC2. (which I already did for windows Phone)

In the app you create a linked device panel per room and you add one relay as boiler relay for the whole system.

The app checks if the temperature in a room is what is should be otherwise marks that that room needs hot water.

If any room needs water the app sends a command to the HC2 to switch on the boiler relay.

In this way, the heating panel stays intact. But the app controls the boiler relay and checks all the temperature sensors as if it is the Danfoss link CC.

In the app you can also change the temperature per room. Which is also very simple. as you can already do this with your iphone app. it's the same functionality. which then overrides the heating panel for several hours or minutes.

You can also make away and holiday settings in the app which does this for a few days...

The only problem for me here is that I need someone to make the iPod touch / iphone app.

I can provide the code in c# to make this functionallity.

So who want's an Ipod touch on the wall as a thermostat for the whole house that is connected to the HC2?

[davedotnet 0]

Yes, but you can not blame Fibaro for this, Danfoss is the problem.

I don't think this is any manufacturer's specific problem.

Most thermostats are battery operated. As a battery operated device, you cannot afford to have the ZWave radio switched on all the time, otherwise, it will last about 2 or 3 days and you'll have to replace the battery. So, most battery operated ZWave thermostats have a setting that allows you to specify the wakeup period of the thermostat and report any settings (or process any commands). They are just not designed for real-time reporting of temperature. The ZWave specifications have more emphasis on a "set it and forget it" paradigm, whereby you use the "SetPoint" command (THERMOSTAT_SETPOINT_SET) in the COMMAND_CLASS_THERMOSTAT_SETPOINT class. and it effectively runs autonomously without any controller intervention. If you look at the Association Groups for any of these thermostats you'll see that mode of operation endorsed. Once configured they do not need the controller.

I've not used the HC2 heating panel, but it seems geared up for a different operational paradigm whereby you are able to monitor temperatures in realtime (which would mean mains operated sensors) and that actions take place based on that. That doesn't really fit into the real world of ZWave thermostatic control.

As a real world example, all my thermostats (one per room) are configured by having their setpoints configured. Yes, I'm sometimes curious as to the temperature, but I can't find out what it is unless I eyeball the thermostat. I also have mains powered Fibaro Universal sensors with Dallas DS18B20 temperature sensors connected, and the HC2 gets notified of every single temperature change. I have thousands of events in my history panel, none of them very interesting. I would rather be able to configure a SetPoint and act on that.

In summary. If you want real-time temperatures by ZWave, get a mains powered sensor and use the heating panel in HC2, otherwise, go for battery/mains thermostat and just configure the SetPoint.

[hvb83 1]

Of course it sucks that the Danfoss valves can't send the temperature to the HC2. The Everspring could be a solution, but it doesn't look very nice and is expensive too.

One option that I haven't heard yet in this topic, is the door/window sensor with a DS18B20. I want to use those as part of burglary detection anyway, so it won't be an extra investment for me in that sense. Surely placing your temperature sensor on a window isn't optimal, but neither is getting the temperature 10cm's from your radiator. Based on experience, you should be able to compensate for additional heat-load in each room based on the location and construction of each facade, etc.

I'm sure there must be a good reason for nobody bringing them up. Is it battery-life?

[davedotnet 0]

The Everspring is not a solution either. It has a REPORT'ing mode that is switched off by default. For good reason. You can set the degree change to control the REPORT'ing, but again the battery life will suffer. Door/Window sensors will suffer with the same problem if they are battery operated.

Hopefully, you've seen my post just prior to yours, basically talking about battery vs mains.

[hvb83 1]

Sorry, I did not see that, must type faster...

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Very useful information. For me, I do not really feel the necessity to have real-time temperature information for every room. Adjusting the setpoint based on experience does it for me.

And in order to control the boiler, I'll just place a mains-powered temperature sensor in a reference room on each floor, so that the HC2 will know wether or not the actual temperature on each floor is above or below the threshold at which it should produce heat.

Just one more question while we're on the subject of batteries. If I've read everything correctly, you can adjust the polling interval of the Danfoss valves from within HC2. I understand that shortening the interval will have a (significant) impact on battery-life. But what do most users prefer? 5 minutes is enough for me, will I be able to make it through the winter on one set of batteries, or will they probably need to be replaced before that? In other words, what is the polling rate at which most users set their Danfoss valves?

[davedotnet 0]

I set my Horstmann to 5 mins and watched the battery drop over a couple of days by about 20%.. it's back up at 4hrs now.. and it's only set at that so that if needs be it will take parameter settings when it wakes up (hopefully the HC2 queues them up).

[marcel 1]

ust one more question while we're on the subject of batteries. If I've read everything correctly, you can adjust the polling interval of the Danfoss valves from within HC2. I understand that shortening the interval will have a (significant) impact on battery-life. But what do most users prefer? 5 minutes is enough for me, will I be able to make it through the winter on one set of batteries, or will they probably need to be replaced before that? In other words, what is the polling rate at which most users set their Danfoss valves?

I think that it is not the z-wave communication taking most of the battery-life, but the valve itself. Therefor the battery will not be (completely) effected by the interval... Changing temperature in the room itself will.

>> About the setpoints itself: Fibaro can you please change the setpoints list on the Danfoss valve (or make it user configurable)? Switching it to 4 degrees or 28 degrees and any 0.5 degrees is a complete waist of the user-interface to me...

[davedotnet 0]

Another consideration for anyone contemplating a predominantly battery-only ZWave device installation is that this class of device cannot provide for any routing. Again, the ZWave radio is off most of the time.

When a set of nodes come together in a network, they establish a mesh with each device knowing its buddies. Buddies can only be devices that provide routing capabilities. Nodes (including the controller) wishing to communicate with each other can route through 4 (max) intermediate nodes to reached a destination, which is how you can get quite a distance between a controller and any specific node.

For a large Danfoss Living Connect installation, you probably need to consider some mains operated ZWave devices (eg, light switches) to provide some form of routing capability for the remote nodes, otherwise you're going to get "Dead Nodes/Devices".

[hvb83 1]

I set my Horstmann to 5 mins and watched the battery drop over a couple of days by about 20%.. it's back up at 4hrs now.. and it's only set at that so that if needs be it will take parameter settings when it wakes up (hopefully the HC2 queues them up).

So that basically means you can easily adjust the parameters over Zwave, for instance the weekly schedule. But adjusting it based on scenes isn't working very well?

For instance "take a bath for the children" would heat up the bathroom and the kids room a few degrees more. Or "home from work early" would heat up the living room and the work room. With the Horstmann / Danfoss's polling interval set at more than 5 minutes, or even 4 hours as in your case, those kind of scenes (or probably any kind of scene) would not be useful.

That is not what I was hoping for. Otherwise I might just as well buy some cheap HR20 valves and only use the boiler relay for controlling the heat per iPhone, at least for the times when you get home earlier then expected. But it's not what I was hoping for.

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[davedotnet 0]

You're right. Choose battery operated devices and you have to live with the set it and forget it paradigm (or replace batteries every few days

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/emoticons/default_icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" /> ). Go for mains powered and you can have a fully dynamic and adjustable world.

I'm fortunate in that all my thermostats are mains powered (12v in reality), as they are part of a larger system, so I have the dynamic capability for every room. I just don't have ZWave thermostats

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There seems to be no way to win..

[Guest MitchellOnline]

You're right. Choose battery operated devices and you have to live with the set it and forget it paradigm (or replace batteries every few days

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/emoticons/default_icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" /> ). Go for mains powered and you can have a fully dynamic and adjustable world.

I'm fortunate in that all my thermostats are mains powered (12v in reality), as they are part of a larger system, so I have the dynamic capability for every room. I just don't have ZWave thermostats

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There seems to be no way to win..

Isn't there a way to main-power battery-devices with a 12V transformer?

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[alex88 70]

You're right. Choose battery operated devices and you have to live with the set it and forget it paradigm (or replace batteries every few days

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" /> ). Go for mains powered and you can have a fully dynamic and adjustable world.

I'm fortunate in that all my thermostats are mains powered (12v in reality), as they are part of a larger system, so I have the dynamic capability for every room. I just don't have ZWave thermostats

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/emoticons/default_icon_sad.gif" alt=":-(" />

There seems to be no way to win..

Isn't there a way to main-power battery-devices with a 12V transformer?

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/emoticons/default_icon_confused.gif" alt=":-?" />

I think that is what davedotnet said.

If it is battery operated, I also plan to mains power whatever multi-sensor I finally install. Come on Fibaro, release the specs and functionality of your multi-sensor

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What is the smallest transformer anyone has found.. my current price/size winner is:

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Although I would prefer something that I can connect direct to mains wires.

[hvb83 1]

You're right. Choose battery operated devices and you have to live with the set it and forget it paradigm (or replace batteries every few days

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" /> ). Go for mains powered and you can have a fully dynamic and adjustable world.

I'm fortunate in that all my thermostats are mains powered (12v in reality), as they are part of a larger system, so I have the dynamic capability for every room. I just don't have ZWave thermostats

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_sad.gif" alt=":-(" />

There seems to be no way to win..

Isn't there a way to main-power battery-devices with a 12V transformer?

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_confused.gif" alt=":-?" />

Of course you can always power devices using a transformer, the voltage depending on the number of batteries used to power the device.

But in my opinion using transformers defies the whole point of using Z-wave in the first place, unless there is really no other way. But for me, the fun in using Z-wave is so I don't need to run any wires. In order to do that neatly, I need to have the entire house plastered again. And if there is a new sensor to the market that provides you with new ideas, you have to do it again... And I can't mill into my ceilings anyway, so that makes it impossible to mount any sensors on the ceiling (for instance movement/daylight sensors).

So, yes, it is possible, but for many applications, it doesn't seem practical.

What Z-wave equipment is there that can't do without hooking it up to mains because the battery-life simply becomes too short to be practical?