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Dimmer 2 switching on live


robd

Question

In the Netherlands it is customary to switch lights with the live wire.

Is it possible to connect a live wire to S1 or S2 and switch the dimmer on and off?

See attached diagram. the switch is also used to switch another light (red arrow) with another load profile, so I can't connect all loads to the Dimmer2

 

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Yes, but it is recommended to stick with the diagrams in the manual. Using L instead of Sx could cause switching issues. Sx is almost, but not quite, like L.

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It would make my life a lot easier if it was supported out of the box (and yes I know my wiring, I'm an electrician)

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It would make my life a lot easier if it was supported out of the box (and yes I know my wiring, I'm an electrician)

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The Fibaro relays work that way, but the dimmers don't. You know what you are doing, so go ahead. The dimmer input is very well protected. And if you have reliability issues, you know where the come from.

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I said it would make my life easier, meaning the way I wired some parts of the house a few years ago

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I don't know what the dimmer expects on the S1 and S2 inputs, and I haven't measured what exactly comes out of the Sx. The only way to do that is with an oscilloscoop: Sx to neutral compared to Live to  neutral.

Maybe if I win the lottery I'll try and see what it does

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Enjoy the last bits of the weekend!!!

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    Using L instead of Sx could cause switching issues. Sx is almost, but not quite, like L.

    Well, that's interesting. Sx is almost L but not quite.

    what is that supposed to mean?

    but ok, you say that the inputs are well protected so I can take a shot.

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    Please keep this thread updated if you are really going to try (over the course of a few weeks for the long term effects.)

     

    I think the Sx is filtered that the inputs get a cleaner sinus and the dimmer doesn't behave unexpected because of pollution on the grid (harmonic interference).

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  • I said it would make my life easier, meaning the way I wired some parts of the house a few years ago

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    I don't know what the dimmer expects on the S1 and S2 inputs, and I haven't measured what exactly comes out of the Sx. The only way to do that is with an oscilloscoop: Sx to neutral compared to Live to  neutral.

    Maybe if I win the lottery I'll try and see what it does

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    /emoticons/default_wink.png" alt=";)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

     

    Enjoy the last bits of the weekend!!!

     

    I have some equipment but an oscilloscope is not one of them and even then, if you see some phase shift or whatever in Sx that does not mean that I know if I can use L to switch the dimmer on and off.

    Next weekend I'm gonna try it and post my results here.

     

    But I agree tot jimicr, it would be better if S1 and S2 coulb be connected directly to L out of the box.

    If I have to stick with the diagrams I have to install another socket and much more.

     

     

     

    The only way to do that is with an oscilloscoop: Sx to neutral compared to Live to  neutral.

    Maybe if I win the lottery I'll try and see what it does

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    Enjoy the last bits of the weekend!!!

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    The reason it would make my life easier is that I have two of the top wiring diagram (with multiple fixtures) running thru the same pipe behind a plastered ceiling where I cant reach te boxes. I'd love to put in dimmers there as well. 

     

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    P.S. the bottom one is very dangerous as I know from personal experiance and not allowed in the Netherlands

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    Hello,

     

    I live in Denmark and here we also use the live to switch the lights.

     

    I have several Dimmers installed in my house using the live wire from the switch, almost like your drawing, working perfectly for around a year.

     

    I just do not have a extra load on the S1/S2 wire (your red arrow) 

     

     

     

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    I've measured Dimmer 2 long time ago. The input circuitry intrigued me. The internal circuitry of the dimmer is referenced to L (not, as you would expect, N). The resistance between L an Sx is almost zero so you could say, from the perspective of the dimmer, both terminals are "zero" (I avoid the use of the word "ground" because that could be confused with earth or neutral). On the S terminals, the dimmer forces a small current (uA) to a small voltage (roughly 3 V). When You connect a switch between Sx an S1 or L and S1, closing this switch will draw current and make the voltage on S1 lower. The dimmer detects that. That still does not explain way those pins are different. I have to make an educated guess here. If you use Sx, there will be no EXTRA current flowing through that terminal (except for stray current caused by stray capacitance). The only current is the one that running through the switch (zero or a few uA). On the other hand, if you use L, It is possible the L is used for, let's say, a socket. And when you plug in a vacuum cleaner, a current runs through that L wire and according to Ohm's law, you have a (varying) voltage on top of the reference voltage of the dimmer. So "zero" at the switch is no longer zero (at the micro controller) and the detection of "open" and "closed" could be wrong. I never found the time to test this hypothesis, so there could be a different reason. But I did test the input circuit of the dimmer, so the stuff about volts and amps is accurate.

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    After a night-sleep I think the S1 and S2 inputs are designed "potential free" (no power flows over the contacts, just a little current to activate the electronics that operate the dimmer) and are not shortcircuit safe; meaning a short would fry the inputs. If a 230v halogenebulb burns out it often trips the fuse.

    Maybe using safe contacts would make the dimmer to big or generate to much heat.

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    No, they are not potential free. I have connected, on occasion, S1 to L and also to N and the dimmer survived. If you need a potential free connection, you'll have to connect a relay contact to S1 and Sx. Halogen bulbs can form an arc when they die, and that causes a momentary high current that trips your breaker.

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    On 8/29/2016 at 12:09 AM, robd said:

    In the Netherlands it is customary to switch lights with the live wire.

    Is it possible to connect a live wire to S1 or S2 and switch the dimmer on and off?

    See attached diagram. the switch is also used to switch another light (red arrow) with another load profile, so I can't connect all loads to the Dimmer2

     

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    did you ever try this? Wanted to run an exhaust fan load off the switched live. 

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