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Can this switch work - see picture


FalkenNOR

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Can the Fibaro switch or rele work for this solution? see picture

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@FalkenNOR it will work on the relay only, just not good practice. The terminals are too close for the different voltages.

Better to slave a relay off contacts then you can use switch or relay.

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23 hours ago, FalkenNOR said:

Can the Fibaro switch or rele work for this solution? see picture

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Hi @FalkenNOR

 

I have a setup that is a little similar...

 

Both my gate controller and garage door opener have "zero-volt" contacts that enable me to trigger them externally. I have fibaro relays installed for this purpose and they work fine.

I echo @Jamie mccrostie sentiment that caution is required  when working with high voltages and in my case I have a lot of room and have made very sure that the high voltage cables are kept far away from any lower volt or zero volt setups

 

**NEVER WORK WITH ELECTRICITY IF YOU ARE UNSURE OR ANYWAY UNCOMFORTABLE - SWITCH OFF WHEN WORKING - TAKE YOUR TIME  - NO SECOND CHANGES WITH ELECTRICITY**

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On 7. 3. 2017 at 5:31 PM, FalkenNOR said:

Can the Fibaro switch or rele work for this solution? see picture

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Well, Fibaro Relay Switch (FGS-2x2) should have galvanically isolated iinput to relay switch (on terminal, it is IN), but i think, it cannot work with 5V DC. There should be minimal 24V DC to get it work. I asked similar to Fibaro tech support, because i was unsure of it. So i think you should turn on/off contactor for that.

 

I did measurement of outputs of FGS-222 today. But yes, in IN terminal was 230V AC. But output was 14,6 - 15,2 volts. So i would not risk to try it with 5V.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • Topic Author
  • Hello 

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     !

     

    Do you use the Fibaro Relay Switch (FGS-2x2) for the work to send signal to garage door opner?

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    4 hours ago, FalkenNOR said:

    Hello 

    Please login or register to see this link.

     !

     

    Do you use the Fibaro Relay Switch (FGS-2x2) for the work to send signal to garage door opner?

     

     

    Hi @FalkenNOR

     

    I have the following door opener

    Please login or register to see this link.

     

    It can be operated via a remote control or a push switch (momentary) in the garage itself 

    A push and release starts the door opening (or closing depending on last action ) and a push again stops the door

     

    On page 4 of the link above is the following picture (13b)

     

    Please login or register to see this image.

    /monthly_2017_03/capture.PNG.d323e4b970a5439573f280d92f34c837.PNG" alt="capture.PNG.d323e4b970a5439573f280d92f34c837.PNG" />

     

    I have a fibaro dual relay, it is a FGS-221 (the blue one on the right below)

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    I installed the dual relay across the two connectors represented by F above so it is in parallel with the two switches I highlighted

    It mimics the button push on my wall switch

     

    it is connected across these two points 

     

    capture1.PNG.11908ff181f5559a86be3957783261ad.PNG

     

    It is operating as a zero volt relay ( I HAVE NO LINK BETWEEN L and IN )

     

    I have the relay set to auto-off after 2 seconds (again to mimic the push switch action)

     

    It works fine except for one thing which I can live with.

    If I have a power cut, when the power comes back on it trips the relay and causes it to open.

    I think it's to do with my door opener but I have coded around it so it closes again straight away and notifiy's me 

     

    hope this helps

    -f

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    On 7-3-2017 at 6:52 PM, Jamie mccrostie said:

    @FalkenNOR it will work on the relay only, just not good practice. The terminals are too close for the different voltages.

    Better to slave a relay off contacts then you can use switch or relay.

     

    I agree with @Jamie mccrostie. It's not only a matter of keeping cables away, that is certainly a required thing. But there are also contacts and traces inside the module, and they might form a bridge from 230 V to your 12 / 24 V circuit, causing electrocution. It may work for now, but you have to consider the effect of pollution, moisture, over-voltage on mains supply, ageing of insulators and I probably forgot a few other things.

     

    BTW The most recent relays, the 2x3 series, no longer have this IN terminal, so it is impossible to make a direct connection to a such a low voltage circuit. So they are inherently safer, because the setup used in the past is simply impossible... And you *have* to use a second relay to "couple" them.

     

    The only Fibaro relay that could be *powered* by non-mains voltage was the 2x1 series. It can run from 24-60V DC ±10% so you could have a doubly insulated 24 DC power supply to power it, then connect the relay contacts to your 5, 12 or 24 V circuit. That would be safe. Later version of the switch do not accept such a low power supply voltage. A DC  rating is no longer in the specs, that is not an omission. I confirmed by testing that it requires a much higher supply voltage to start.

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    Thanks 

    I hadn't considered the long term reliability of these units. I assumed the spec was solid for the life of the unit. I will need adjust the two setups I have ( gate and garage door controllers ) to a subordinated relay design. Shouldn't be a big issue. 

     

    Thx

    -f

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    27 minutes ago, AutoFrank said:

    Thanks 

    I hadn't considered the long term reliability of these units. I assumed the spec was solid for the life of the unit. I will need adjust the two setups I have ( gate and garage door controllers ) to a subordinated relay design. Shouldn't be a big issue. 

     

    Thx

    -f

     

    But... But.. It's not in the spec. It's more of general requirement. What you need is an "interface relays". To interface between low voltage and extra low voltage circuits to ensure galvanic insulation between LV and ELV.

     

    LV = "Low Voltage" = electrician's terminology for "mains". It is "low" compared to 1000 Volt AC (1500 V DC):-)

    ELV = "Extra Low Voltage" = electrician's terminology for anything < 50 V AC

    SELV = Separated or safety extra-low voltage (SELV)

     

    I quote from wikipedia:

     

    SELV = "an electrical system in which the voltage cannot exceed ELV under normal conditions, and under single-fault conditions, including earth faults in other circuits". It is generally accepted that the acronym: "SELV" stands for "separated extra-low voltage" (separated from earth) as defined in installation standards (e.g., BS 7671), though BS EN 60335 refers to it as "safety extra-low voltage".

     

    A SELV circuit must have:

    • electrical protective-separation (i.e., double insulation, reinforced insulation or protective screening) from all circuits other than SELV and PELV (i.e., all circuits that might carry higher voltages)
    • simple separation from other SELV systems, from PELV systems and from earth (ground).

    The safety of a SELV circuit is provided by

    • the extra-low voltage
    • the low risk of accidental contact with a higher voltage.
    • the lack of a return path through earth (ground) that electric current could take in case of contact with a human body.

    So that's where the requirements of "separation" (like your separate cable bundles for LV and (S)ELV) come from. Also, often mentioned are "creepage" and "clearance", this is the separation over surfaces and separation through air.

     

    I'm not an expert on testing, but I've seen this mentioned a few times: a 4000 V impulse is superimposed on the LV circuit, and then no current should flow through the ELV circuit. So it is commonly thought that 230 V will not cause a problem with the gaps you find on a typical home automation relay. That's true. But it's supposed also to work (safely) with such a high impulse...

     

    All this is of no concern if you just use the home automation relays to switch lamps (or rated loads at mains voltage). It's when these (S)ELV are involved, that things get tricky.

     

    Also note that these modules are for indoor use only. This limits temperature and moisture to "human" levels.

     

    It's like requirements for equipment allowed in a bathroom. I don't know local regulations, but I bet you are only allowed to use SELV in a certain area. SELV extends to sprinkler systems, alarm systems, ...

    Edited by petergebruers
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    9 hours ago, AutoFrank said:

    Thanks @petergebruers

     

    Always learning .. Thanks 

     

    Would you have a recommendation for a suitable relay or relay spec considering the setup discussed  ? 

     

    I like the DIN rail relays from Finder. The coil is 230 V and connects to your Z-Wave relay (any version). The other side can be used with any voltage (up to 250 V AC or 30 V DC at 16 A). Because it's a 16 A relay, you can also use it to switch loads that exceed the specifications of the (Fibaro or other) Relays. For instance, a 3 kW heater. Or high inrush current loads like, say, 10 x 10 W LED no-brand spotlight which doesn't have input inrush current limitation.

     

    I have a slightly different model, without the test button. I think there is no price difference.

    Feel free to suggest something else, I'll have a look at the datasheet if you want a second opinion.

     

    Key selling points:

    • DIN RAIL mount
    • 16 A continuous, 25 A peak (reduced life) @ 230 V AC or 16 A DC up to 30 V.
    • Screw terminal connection
    • Coupler relay 15.8 mm wide. "Safe separation" according to VDE 0106/EN 60335.
    • LED (green)
    • Varistor (reduces arcing at the driving relay, limits back EMF)
    • Mechanical position indicating device
    • Lockable test button
    • Minimum creepage distance (coil/clips): 8 mm. Tested: 6000 V 1 minute.
    • Contact life 100.000 cycles resistive, 10.000 when starting an inductive load (motor)
    • Temp range -40 to +50 degrees C (+70 if I<12A)
    • IP 20 = no protection against water ingress

    Product number 4C.01.8.230.0060 breakdown:

    • 4C = Series
    • 0 = 35 mm rail (EN 60715) mount screw terminal socket
    • 1 = 1 pole
    • 8 = AC coil
    • 230 = coil voltage
    • 0 = AgNi contact material
    • 0 = double throw
    • 6 = green LED + Varistor

    Be careful, if you order a relay with slightly different product code... every part has some significance (it's not "colour").

     

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    That seller also publishes the datasheet.

     

    To be clear... I have no vested interest.

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    @petergebruers finder is a great  brand, I use their product range. They do a good range of mini din mount relays.

    Here Omron is also very popular but more exspensive

     

    As you say good that finder coil terminals at one end, good re seperation.

    Edited by Jamie mccrostie
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    Thanks @petergebruers, @Jamie mccrostie

     

    The DIN mount isn't that important as the two places I use this zero-volt setup are for my gate controller ( in box next to gate) and my garage opener (hanging from rafters in garage). 

    I'll take a look at the Finder Range and see if I can find something suitable.

     

    Would you guys mind if I revert back with what I think might work for a second opinion before ordering ?

     

    -f

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    1 hour ago, Jamie mccrostie said:

    @AutoFrank all the major manufacturers do relays that are similar. Din mount is more common these days so most will be in that config.

     

    Thanks @Jamie mccrostie

    I did a quick ccheck and they may be more suitable as they have the screw terminals

     

    -f

    Edited by AutoFrank
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    Ah. Yes. You could buy a bunch of spade connectors. And a suitable crimping tool. Then practice to get the perfect crimp. Or, go the diy "solder" route, but make sure everything is 100%. Not sure if regulations allow it (last time I checked, it was allowed in Belgium. But crimp is preferred) Depending on local regulations, and of course the specs of your relay, you need different connector gauges and bits of wire. It will save space, sure. But you probably guess where I am going: DIN rail plus screw or non-screw terminals is the way to go :-) If you need something smaller, well, I've tried, a few times, to find something with screw terminals, but failed... Maybe it exists, and if you really need one, let me know. I'll try harder. :-) I'm telling this because you probably wondered why there are so many different relays, with different terminals and form factors, and we only talk about the DIN type.

     

    Edit: I buy sometimes from:

     

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    This morning I did a quick check, I saw nothing really especially small...

    Edited by petergebruers
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    4 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    But you probably guess where I am going: DIN rail plus screw or non-screw terminals is the way to go

     

    space should't be an issue for the garage door open, loads of room for a separate electrical box.

    Will need to see with the gate controller.. I'll have to take a peek when I have some time next weekend, my electrician put that one it. ( it would be funny of he installed a separate relay at the time)

     

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    45 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    Ah. Yes. You could buy a bunch of spade connectors. And a suitable crimping tool. Then practice to get the perfect crimp. Or, go the diy "solder" route, but make sure everything is 100%. Not sure if regulations allow it (last time I checked, it was allowed in Belgium. But crimp is preferred) Depending on local regulations, and of course the specs of your relay, you need different connector gauges and bits of wire. It will save space, sure. But you probably guess where I am going: DIN rail plus screw or non-screw terminals is the way to go :-) If you need something smaller, well, I've tried, a few times, to find something with screw terminals, but failed... Maybe it exists, and if you really need one, let me know. I'll try harder. :-) I'm telling this because you probably wondered why there are so many different relays, with different terminals and form factors, and we only talk about the DIN type.

     

    Edit: I buy sometimes from:

     

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    This morning I did a quick check, I saw nothing really especially small...

    Not wanting to drag this out.... but my point is you mount it on a bit of din in a box then your cable routing is easily segregated 

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    5 minutes ago, Jamie mccrostie said:

    Not wanting to drag this out.... but my point is you mount it on a bit of din in a box then your cable routing is easily segregated 

     

    Quite so. Over the years I've had a few requests to mount the relays in the existing gate/door controller. I've always felt as "the bearer of bad news" when I said that a (Fibaro) relay on its own isn't enough. Hence "the quest for smaller relays". I think it almost inevitably ends in having an extra box, with din rail, indoors. That also avoids potential trouble with temperature and moisture. So I think, we agree... :-)

     

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