Jump to content

Welcome to Smart Home Forum by FIBARO

Dear Guest,

 

as you can notice parts of Smart Home Forum by FIBARO is not available for you. You have to register in order to view all content and post in our community. Don't worry! Registration is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to sign up. Become a part of of Smart Home Forum by FIBARO by creating an account.

 

As a member you can:

  •     Start new topics and reply to others
  •     Follow topics and users to get email updates
  •     Get your own profile page and make new friends
  •     Send personal messages
  •     ... and learn a lot about our system!

 

Regards,

Smart Home Forum by FIBARO Team


Please add support for Aeotec ZW095 (Gen 5 HEM)


AutoFrank
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, Jamie mccrostie said:

 

Following deregulation of our power industries most  meters here where I live are smart meters, saves them a fortune in meter reading. They run on the cell phone network Im guessing.

The big plus is the user data mapping peak usage etc . 

Recently the courts decided the data belonged to the customer so now power brokers are big business being able to match and group users to different supply company 

offerings. You could change supply companys weekly if you really wanted to.

 

Interesting background info. Are you saying that you too are unable to directly read out the meter?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  • 2 minutes ago, Jamie mccrostie said:

    Following deregulation of our power industries most  meters here where I live are smart meters, saves them a fortune in meter reading. They run on the cell phone network Im guessing.

    The big plus is the user data mapping peak usage etc . 

    Recently the courts decided the data belonged to the customer so now power brokers are big business being able to match and group users to different supply company 

    offerings. You could change supply companys weekly if you really wanted to.

     

    @Jamie mccrostiesmart meters here in ireland are a rarity. I have seen the model and it's just slightly smarter than dumb :-) They introduced them here a number of years ago and used to pay a tarriff for micro-generation (it was small but at least it was something, but I was too late to the party ) So now I could get a smart meter for €350 that will measure what I send back, but I can't see the data and they won't pay me for it ... so.... not sure why anybody would get one .... wouldn't like to be trying to market that service/device :-( 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    2 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

     

    Interesting background info. Are you saying that you too are unable to directly read out the meter?

    No the meter still has some usage info on it but all your usage down to the day and time of day is available and when you are on multible rate connection ,cheaper night rate power for heating etc, this has huge marketing possibilitys for the suppliers and huge power saving possibilitys for the users.. cheaper rates for shedding load at peak usage times for a discount etc

    4 minutes ago, AutoFrank said:

     

    @Jamie mccrostiesmart meters here in ireland are a rarity. I have seen the model and it's just slightly smarter than dumb :-) They introduced them here a number of years ago and used to pay a tarriff for micro-generation (it was small but at least it was something, but I was too late to the party ) So now I could get a smart meter for €350 that will measure what I send back, but I can't see the data and they won't pay me for it ... so.... not sure why anybody would get one .... wouldn't like to be trying to market that service/device :-( 

    We are in a funny situation being a island there is no one to sell our off peak generated power to so with our large percentage of hydro generation, night rate power is half price of day rate.

    The bad thing about this is the govt doesnt get behind solar generation. And power buy back by supplyers started ok but now its not worth the effort.

    They dont charge you extra for smart meters here.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    15 minutes ago, AutoFrank said:

    (...)

     

    My small scale experiment seems to suggest that for a Gen 5 device , parameter 2 set to 3 give some indication of reverse flow

    The watts reading is zero but volts and amps seem accurate ( 240v x 0.08A) for a 20 watt halogen (that is reading ~22watts in reality) 

     

    but I can't seem to replicate that with the clamp in my consumer unit around the Live cable....

    I need to do some more measurements this evening ...

     

    My head is still running in power save mode. Let's see if I get it...

    • HEM Gen5 on your desk, with halogen bulb, with parameter 2 = 3 gives 0 Watts, 240 V and 0.08 A. Because a resistive load has P = U x I you deduce P = 19.2 W. So the I and U measurements makes sense. The current clamp was reversed, so it should report a negative value. But Fibaro HC displays "0" so it either reports 0 (and HC2 displays it) or it reports a negative value (-19.2 W) but HC2 displays it as 0... Correct?
    • HEM Gen5 clamped onto main Live wire. You can't test that with a single halogen lamp, so I suppose you are doing a similar but sufficiently different experiment, that leads you to the same "0" display. Right?

    I have to admit: I don't have any clue about Z-Wave and negative power reporting. I'll have a look at how OpenZWave handles this...

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  • 2 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    HEM Gen5 on your desk, with halogen bulb, with parameter 2 = 3 gives 0 Watts, 240 V and 0.08 A. Because a resistive load has P = U x I you deduce P = 19.2 W. So the I and U measurements makes sense. The current clamp was reversed, so it should report a negative value. But Fibaro HC displays "0" so it either reports 0 (and HC2 displays it) or it reports a negative value (-19.2 W) but HC2 displays it as 0... Correct?

     

    @petergebruers

    Correct - I didn't check through /docs or whether it was 0 or negative but the watts displayed 0 in teh lower part of the device in the Web UI

     

    3 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    HEM Gen5 clamped onto main Live wire. You can't test that with a single halogen lamp, so I suppose you are doing a similar but sufficiently different experiment, that leads you to the same "0" display. Right?

     

    close but .....

    With this setup I get a positive Watts reading (in the  00 range ) but the A/V don't tally with the Watts and the watts don't tally with what I'd expect the house load would be ....

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    By process of elimination, I'd say that parameter 2 should be changed from it's default "0" to "1". that is: "1 = report positive/negative power, report the algebraic sum energy".

     

    I'm going to make an educated guess what the options mean:

    • 0 = "measure power, but always report as a positive number". If you produce 20 W, report + 20. If you consume 30 W, report + 30. Useful if you don't produce electricity.
    • 1 = "report positive/negative power, report the algebraic sum energy". If you produce 20 W, report - 20. If you consume 30 W, report + 30.
    • 2 = "only report energy positive part (consuming electricity)". If you produce 20 W, report 0. If you consume 30 W, report + 30.
    • 3 = "only report energy negative part (generating electricity)". If you produce 20 W, report - 20. If you consume 30 W, report 0.
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  • Thanks @petergebruers

    that makes sense and this way I would just need one clamp in the main feed into the house.... if it works...

    I'll play around with the parameters this evening and my jig and see if I can verify the assumptions above, with particular focus with setting 1

     

    EDIT

    @petergebruers, @Jamie mccrostie

    I dialed to home and adjusted the parameters and this is now what I am seeing...

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

     

    Still not making sense

    Perhaps the Gen 5 (middle row above) or Gen 2 didn't include correctly......

     

    Edited by AutoFrank
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  • @petergebruers, @Jamie mccrostie, @morpheus75

     

    Hi

    I did a little experimentation last night and confirmed that all three clamps (2 x Gen 5 and 1 x Gen 2) are reading accurately for my 20w bulb and the two Gen 5 read 0W in reverse most of the time.

    I also clamped the live in the main utility box at the side of the house and this is reading the same as in my utility room,

    I now have the Gen 2 and Gen 5 that are on the same cable (live feed into house) reading within 5 or 10 W of each other.

     

    The Gen 5 clamp with parameter 2 set to 3 read 0 W (but Volts and amps accurate) when I was testing reverse flow. I did have some time where it read 6 or 7 W but that may have been down to me switching the clamp head from one direction to the other. At higher watts from the PV panel I was consistently getting 0W in reverse but with the line in feed to the main utility panel I was getting anywhere between 300 and 500 W and sometimes higher. The only difference is that he PV wire is 2.5 mm2 where the main live look 6 mm2 (unsure if this makes a difference to the reading)

     

    Today is all about data gathering

    Clamp 1 - Gen 2 is set to read forward flow on the main live feed into the house

    Clamp 2 - Gen 5 is set to read reverse flow (parameter 2 = 3) on the main live feed into the house

    Clamp 3 - Gen 5 is set to read forward flow from (parameter 2 = 2) from PV panels

     

    I created a VD to gather the W, A and V for all three clamps.  I created a second instance of my simple logger and am using it as a data Logger. I gather the data ever 30 seconds and send to pushover every 1000 chars which is the only way I know to get the data from HC2. I get a notification every 5 mins approx and the output is in the following format

     

    pPV: W | V | A (from solar panels)

    pIn: W | V | A (main feed into house)

    pOut: W (C) | V | A (reverse flow on cable into house) where C is the calculated watts from volts and amps

     

    Actual output....

    Please login or register to see this code.

    I'll stitch it together later and see if I can find a pattern

     

    I do get seem to get some strange co-incidences like the following one earlier where the data seems to oddly make sens

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

     

    Power In - 440 W

    Power Out - 330 W

    PV power 735

     

    This would seem to add up if the power in was what the house was actually using and not drawing from the grid but I can't see how that is the case and it doesn't always seem o ready that way.

     

    I'll see what the data says later

     

    _f

     

    Edited by AutoFrank
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I need more time to think this through... but here's what comes to my mind...

    • Diameter doesn't matter. A current clamp is a transformer, but an odd one: the primary winding is "one turn" = just the wire going through the core. The secondary is in the clamp and terminated with a resistor. It's the turns ratio that's important, not the diameter or resistance of the wire through the clamp.
    • Because the clamp can register up to 60 A AC I expect it to have inaccuracies with currents lower than 1% of that number, so P min = 60 * 0.01 * 240 = 144 Watt. Anything below that may suffer from reduced accuracy, linearity, noise and so on. I expect it to be better than that, showing reasonable numbers up to 0,1% = 14 Watt, but not below that. So, if possible, increase your load a bit, to 60 or 100 W halogen... BTW they hint at this fact by stating in the manual: "Measurement Accuracy: Over 99%." - but I can tell you that this statement is not enough to assess the quality of the measurement at the extremes...
    • Power is not Volts x Amps on AC. It's Volts x Amps x Power Factor (PF or cos phi). A halogen bulb has a PF of 1 but a LED can have anything between 0.5 and 1.0. The clamp doesn't measure PF but it the manual says it can report apparent power (VA) and reactive power (VAR). And PF = true power / apparent power.
    • I'd expect the "the main live feed into the house" to be a Gen5 with p2=1  (and not a Gen 2) because that one should be able to report wether your solar has a surplus, after feeding the house (injecting power into the grid)... The solar panels can only deliver power, and the house can only consume power, so unidirectional measurement should be fine.
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  • 17 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    I'd expect the "the main live feed into the house" to be a Gen5 with p2=1  (and not a Gen 2) because that one should be able to report wether your solar has a surplus, after feeding the house (injecting power into the grid)... The solar panels can only deliver power, and the house can only consume power, so unidirectional measurement should be fine.

     

    Thanks @petergebruers

    I actually have both but will change my gen 5 to p2 = 1 and see how that shifts the data for the rest of the day's logging

     

    I'll take a look at the other comment and see if I can improve the data I gather.

    When I change the parameter would you expect the change to be instant ( <10 seconds) and I shouldn't nee to power cycle the HEM ?

     

    Also - do you think I need to change the polling on the volts and amps or is the fact that I am fetching the data from a VD mean that I will get the latest data ?

     

    _f

     

    Edited by AutoFrank
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    3 hours ago, AutoFrank said:

    (...)

    When I change the parameter would you expect the change to be instant ( <10 seconds) and I shouldn't nee to power cycle the HEM ?

     

    Also - do you think I need to change the polling on the volts and amps or is the fact that I am fetching the data from a VD mean that I will get the latest data ?

    (...)

     

     

    I honestly don't know if you need to power cycle, the manual doesn't seem to mention it. I don't think Z-Wave mandates instant response to parameters... but I've not yet heard of a device that needs a power cycle to take some setting into account. My Windows pc, on the other hand, ... :-D

     

    Yes, you need to poll to get the latest data.

     

    Please login or register to see this code.

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  • 17 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

     

    I honestly don't know if you need to power cycle, the manual doesn't seem to mention it. I don't think Z-Wave mandates instant response to parameters... but I've not yet heard of a device that needs a power cycle to take some setting into account. My Windows pc, on the other hand, ... :-D

     

    Yes, you need to poll to get the latest data.

     

    Please login or register to see this code.

     

     

    Thanks @petergebruers

    I'll set up another data gathering exercise for tomorrow just focused on the Gen 5 units (PV generation and the other Gne 5 on the line in ) with p2 = 1 on each one..

    I'll see how it works out

    I should be able to conduct some higher wattage checks and see if its I can start to detect reverse flow with accuracy

     

    fingers crossed....

     

    Thanks 

    _f

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  •  

    I collected data over the last 18 hours for both Solar Generation and Grid Consumption using two Gen 5 clamps (both with p2 = 1)

    I charted the data and this is what it looks like ..

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

     

    There definitely are times where I have zero watts being drawn from the grid. I think it's fair to assume that during some of these occasions I have an excess that is being fed back into the grid. The next step is to try and identify these times and if I can calculate the excess numerically..

     

    It's also worth noting that it has been raining all day here and is very overcast so with a good day I'd expect to see more excess identified.

    I'm also looking at shutting down some non-essential appliances over night and try and get my nightly consumption as low as possible....

     

    It's getting interesting now :-)

     

     

    Edited by AutoFrank
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Hello all

    my clamps arrived and i have added them to HC2.

    i have connected them as per diagram

    1. Solar PV generation

    2. House Usage irrespective of source (grid or PV)

    3. Billing - so just measures forward energy ie what i am getting billed for.

     

    Solar - 1.73kW

    House - 1.24kW

    Billing - 0.2kW

    so im not getting a true zero value for billing. Voltage and Current indicate approx 1.5kW

    the parameter 2 setting is at 2 which i hope was positive power reporting.

     

    any thoughts guys

    cheers

     

    PS i have added the data to thingspeak for graphical representation. every 5 mins i will get an entry on the graph. see here   

    Please login or register to see this link.

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

    Edited by morpheus75
    thingspeak update
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    It confuses me a to see "kW" and no "hours" - or "kWh". It might be me.

     

    But bear ear in mind the difference between kW and kWh.

     

    Here's a thought experiment. You can actually do it, but that's probably not necessary.

     

    Imagine a wall plug. It's connected to a load. It's 07:30. Now poll the wall plug and record the power consumption: zero watt. Also note the kW-hour (eg. 36,7).

    Turn on the load. Don't poll the wall plug. In fact, don't do anything, just let it run for an hour.

    At 08:30, turn it off. Poll the wall plug and record the power consumption: zero watt. Also note the kW-hour (eg. 37,7).

     

    According to the W measurement, your load consumed nothing! This happens, because you didn't accumulate, integrate, record measurements between start and stop.

     

    But when you subtract the *kWh* values, you'll notice a 1 kWh difference. Good!

     

    So the correct math is: power consumed = (kwh_at_time2 - kwh_at_time1) / (time2 -time1).

     

    In my thought experiment: power = 1 kW = (37,7 kWh - 36,7 kWh) / ( 08:30 - 07:30)

     

    This "power consumed" has dimension "kW" because you specifically took 2 data points in time, but I'd still guess you'd mention that ("per hour, per day, last hour, ...").

     

    @AutoFrank in your case, for example, is a data point on your graph the power consumption of the previous 15 minutes?

    @morpheus75 are those numbers from the start of the measurement (inclusion of the probe)? What interval is it? BTW I'm reasonably sure that your "Billing" probe needs to be set to record positive and negative values. The other two meters don't matter because they never have any backwards flow.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  • Hi @petergebruers

    My vd runs every 60 seconds and polls/reads/logs at that stage so i assume it's a point in time measurement of watts when I poll it ... if that makes sense ....

    1 hour ago, morpheus75 said:

    Hello all

    my clamps arrived and i have added them to HC2.

    i have connected them as per diagram

    1. Solar PV generation

    2. House Usage irrespective of source (grid or PV)

    3. Billing - so just measures forward energy ie what i am getting billed for.

     

    Solar - 1.73kW

    House - 1.24kW

    Billing - 0.2kW

    so im not getting a true zero value for billing. Voltage and Current indicate approx 1.5kW

    the parameter 2 setting is at 2 which i hope was positive power reporting.

     

    any thoughts guys

    cheers

     

    PS i have added the data to thingspeak for graphical representation. every 5 mins i will get an entry on the graph. see here   

    Please login or register to see this link.

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

    @morpheus75

    I'd be very interested in how you use thingspeak if you have done info 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    11 minutes ago, AutoFrank said:

    Hi @petergebruers

    My vd runs every 60 seconds and polls/reads/logs at that stage so i assume it's a point in time measurement of watts when I poll it ... if that makes sense ....

    @morpheus75

    I'd be very interested in how you use thingspeak if you have done info 

     

    Can you add a measurement to your graph? Please record the kWh value. That should be an ever increasing value on "solar" and "house" meters (on "billing" there should be plateaus or downward slopes). Then you can do the math by simply taking two data points, like I said in post #35. Then see if you can match your first graph to the data of the new graph. I bet they'll look similar, but they won't match (because your first graph forgets to take into account what happened in that 1 minute sampling interval).

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  • 30 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

     

    Can you add a measurement to your graph? Please record the kWh value. That should be an ever increasing value on "solar" and "house" meters (on "billing" there should be plateaus or downward slopes). Then you can do the math by simply taking two data points, like I said in post #35. Then see if you can match your first graph to the data of the new graph. I bet they'll look similar, but they won't match (because your first graph forgets to take into account what happened in that 1 minute sampling interval).

     

    Hi @petergebruers, @morpheus75

     

    I've added the KWh to my data logging and will take a look tomorrow afternoon

    I'm now gathering all 3 clamps now and energy and power from all 3

    • PV = Gen 5 (p2 = 1)
    • Grid - gen 5 (p2 = 1)
    • Grid 2 - Gen 2 

    Grid and Grid 2 are on the same cable on the feed into my main isolator. .

     

    Curiously even though my Gen 5 p2 = 1 it didn't seem to record any negative value even when it went to and stayed at zero

    My Gen 2 and Gen are reading similar value for forward flow current

    Mid way through tomorrow I think I'll change the Gen 5 p2=3 (negative only) and see if it makes any difference

     

    BTW - this is the code I'm using to log the data, it's a bit rough but working for me

    I have to dump blocks of data to pushover as I don't have another way to get the data out of the HC2 :-(

     

    Please login or register to see this code.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    hi

    my measurements are 'power consumption at that point in time' so for me it is just what is being used at any given time. therefore units of kW.

    kWh gives us a cumulative of consumption which i will add to my graphs but at the moment im having issues with readings.

    the Volts and Amps are all correct readings, ie 246v and 0.6a for solar which should be giving me a reading of about 100w which is normal rest mode for solar but the reading im getting is 445w and its 2am!!

    also just checked data and since 17:40 the readings have been the same for power and in between i checked the app and its been showing varying AMPS and voltage between 246 to 250 so i believe the V and A readings are all ok but something wrong on the power side.

    any thoughts????

    @AutoFrank will do a short write up on thingspeak its quite straightforward

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

  • Topic Author
  • @morpheus75

    Thanks 're the thingspeak...

     

    The reading issue could be that that slave didn't include fully. Try a soft reconfiguration. I had to also this for both the gen 2 and gen 5 with the amps readings at various stages 

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

    Guest
    Reply to this topic...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

     Share

    ×
    ×
    • Create New...