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Fibaro treat users as lab rats


Sankotronic

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Hello dear users of Fibaro products!

 

Fibaro introduced new way of handling location services including time and time zone adjusting by forcing reboot of the gateway if you do any changes to this settings. This means that if you want to adjust time or change time zone by selecting another city this will end with reboot. I don't need to emphasize how stupid this is since I never had such need with any other computer or device alike. 

 

As all of you know an old bug with NTP service is not solved for long time which really puzzles me why? Home center is not just a computer it is device that control our houses and ACCURATE TIME is of the essence! 

 

Since NTP service is NOT working properly, most of us start to use Clock Sync VD to correct time drifting that Fibaro development team was unable to correct for so long time. Unfortunately after Fibaro introduced this beta firmware 4.136 this is not acceptable solution since VD causes Home Center to reboot!

 

Actually, even if you don't use Clock Sync VD anymore and you go to Configuration Location and try to adjust any of the settings there this will end with forced reboot!

 

What I don't like with Fibaro is that THEY FORGET TO MENTION THIS NEW "FEATURE" to their users! There is nothing about that in change log for 4.136 or 4.140:

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This kind of behavior from Fibaro for me is absolutely not acceptable! I have a strong feeling that they are trying to make lab rat from me, my family and my home! I can't let them do that at cost to completely abandon their system if necessary.

 

Also if this practice continue to negatively influence my family and our home I will have no other solution but to call other users to organize and raise law suit for not sharing important information to us and disturbing our homes and families.

 

I really hope that it will not go that far and that Fibaro will show more respect and responsibility for their users!

 

At this moment very unhappy, disappointed and angry

Fibaro user

Sankotronic

 

BTW - This REBOOT HC if clock or time zone is adjusted is NOT FEATURE like @T.Konopka tired to sell it to us here:

 

this is VERY NASTY BUG that requires quick response from Fibaro team!

 

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I have abandoned spending time and money in such a unstable system. It is a pitty that people like you spent so much time on developing components for it. It could have been such a great system, but it isn't as fibaro is not taking care of its users.

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Sneaking in unannounced so called "features" that reek havoc on users systems is quite slimy on Fibaro's part... What's your thoughts on this @T.Konopka?

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It's very strange and suspicious that many bugs and "features" are not listed in a change log. I remember when sending emails and pushes stopped working after upgrade to 4.90 version.
I can not imagine to publish new "stable" version without such primary functions. And of course there are no info about fixing these errors in change log of 4.100 version.

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I have no idea what TS is talking about.

NTP is working perfect now without a VD.

Also i never have a reboot when i change something, but if you do, how often do you change the NTP server name?

 

My HC2 is rock solid.

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I started 5 years ago, when HC2 was still running 3.X firmware. My system is OK.

 

Although I was not bitten by this "reboot" feature, I understand your anger.

 

This should have been at the top of the release notes...

 

I have tried hard to find excuses, but I cannot find a single one.

 

You won't often get such a bold statement from me.

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Of cause this is not a feature, but software was never flawless. You know how to avoid this reboot, so it could be worse. I had this problem with NTP vd and 503 with the Netatmo service, but pulling them off the system got my system stable again.

 

I DO think Fibaro should put up a plan for NTP though. Time is always extremely important in a system like this. It's a basic thing - not even a feature. So please give us a plan or a stable workaround Fibaro (and it would be nice to admit the bug - most people here are experienced nerds).

It would also be a basic feature to give us access to tech/system logs , and to ensure a proper error/exception handling in LUA, instead of reboot or 503

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I think the release changelog is a bit light on detail in general but changes like these should be front and center if they are 'designed' features... 

 

All software has bugs and this is difficult to prevent.  I think it would be useful if the admins kept a running list of confirme bugs for a given release ....

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  • 1 hour ago, rvelthoen said:

    I have no idea what TS is talking about.

    NTP is working perfect now without a VD.

    Also i never have a reboot when i change something, but if you do, how often do you change the NTP server name?

     

    My HC2 is rock solid.

     

    Hi @rvelthoen,

     

    That is really, really great to hear that your HC has no problems with time drifting! Can you please share which NTP server did you set on your HC2.

    BTW on what firmware version is your HC2 at the moment?

     

    Hi @petergebruers,

     

    I see that you didn't use Clock Sync VD to correct HC time drifting. May I ask you how did you solved this problem or you also don't have problem with time drifting?

     

    Does anyone has nay other solution or it is now only one, to reboot HC2 every few days?

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    Well said Sankotronic!

    This is unacceptable!

    Edited by Cafun
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    I understand your frustration!   Product owner, manager, whoever, put this on the next release or short after. Time is essential/basic in a domotica system.

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    Guys sorry, but I play devil lawyer.

     

    Well, reboot after change in location is great feature and I like that.

     

    Time drift is an issue, that is true. But if I look at reports from installers and end-customers in CZ/SK. Time drift issue has a side effect (if you download time from internet), that sometimes you get year 1970 (mostly on hcl after unexpected reboot, such as 503 error).

     

    Now in last several months (there is where my notes goes), I did not any reports about time drift (customers and installers in cz/sk).

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  • 1 hour ago, jakub.jezek said:

    Guys sorry, but I play devil lawyer.

     

     

    Hi @jakub.jezek,

     

    You didn't get the main point! Main point is that Fibaro just doesn't tell the truth about changes to the firmware! When this kind of "feature" is introduced then it must be in the change log list! Also there is no list of know issues and workarounds which will be expected for the device that is very personal and is controlling our homes!

     

    2 hours ago, jakub.jezek said:

    Well, reboot after change in location is great feature and I like that.

     

    This is just an incomplete statement. Can you please elaborate what is so great about this "reboot" when time or time zone is adjusted? Will you have same opinion if Microsoft introduce same forced reboot "feature" to their Windows, so you have to reboot OS every time just to adjust clock?

     

     

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    4 hours ago, Sankotronic said:

     

    Hi @jakub.jezek,

     

    You didn't get the main point! Main point is that Fibaro just doesn't tell the truth about changes to the firmware! When this kind of "feature" is introduced then it must be in the change log list! Also there is no list of know issues and workarounds which will be expected for the device that is very personal and is controlling our homes!

    Don't worry, I get it. As a partner I know little bit more than you guys (except other partners). Issues, that were not solved but reported, have simply lower priority then other issues. I showed this topic to a guy from Fibaro, so he will pass it to right person and somebody from Fibaro will react.

     

    And please, don't answer that this (timedrift) should have higher priority. Fibaro team decides what get fix in the next update, not we (users). I am familiar with they approach. If there is something urgent (in company we decide if it is urgent, if it affects sales), I know how to ask for higher priority for that case.

     

    4 hours ago, Sankotronic said:

     

    Hi @jakub.jezek

    This is just an incomplete statement. Can you please elaborate what is so great about this "reboot" when time or time zone is adjusted? Will you have same opinion if Microsoft introduce same forced reboot "feature" to their Windows, so you have to reboot OS every time just to adjust clock?

    You need correct time since controller starts (time scenes, sync with other controller) than reboot after setting time is correct approach. 

     

    Also Fibaro is not only one that has it. Control4 has this kind of reboot too for a long time and nobody said any thing. Yes, they have time drift too (old speakerpoints in 99,9% cases), but they solved it (new speakerpoint).

     

    And regarding Windows. Windows is full of sh*t and nobody wants to make smarthome based on Windows, so I do not care about time on my PC or if reboot after time settings are saved.

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  • 1 hour ago, jakub.jezek said:

    Don't worry, I get it. As a partner I know little bit more than you guys (except other partners). Issues, that were not solved but reported, have simply lower priority then other issues. I showed this topic to a guy from Fibaro, so he will pass it to right person and somebody from Fibaro will react.

     

    Hi @jakub.jezek,

     

    I'm really happy that Fibaro share information with their partners at least. But I'm still puzzled that time drifting bug has low priority since home automation is all about timing! Still, no one can convince me that introducing this new 'feature' with forced reboot if clock is adjusted in location services is a good choice when time drifting is not solved. Moreover, this should be definitely mentioned in change log.

     

    1 hour ago, jakub.jezek said:

    And please, don't answer that this (timedrift) should have higher priority.

     

    Ok, I will not answer that but I can tell you it looks so weird when you look on mobile apps that time when alarm clock should be triggered at 6:00 but time on iPhone shows 5:58! ;-) 

     

    1 hour ago, jakub.jezek said:

    Fibaro team decides what get fix in the next update, not we (users). I am familiar with they approach. If there is something urgent (in company we decide if it is urgent, if it affects sales), I know how to ask for higher priority for that case.

     

    In this matter they are not different from other companies. Who cares about users as long as sales are good. Also I can understand why you are on their side. ;-) 

     

    1 hour ago, jakub.jezek said:

    You need correct time since controller starts (time scenes, sync with other controller) than reboot after setting time is correct approach.

     

    To be honest I realize that while I was writing my answer. There is logic in that and I don't have nothing against it when complete solution is delivered!

    But if I have time difference of 9 seconds in only 11h of HC running then you should understand my concerns. 

     

    1 hour ago, jakub.jezek said:

    And regarding Windows. Windows is full of sh*t and nobody wants to make smarthome based on Windows, so I do not care about time on my PC or if reboot after time settings are saved.

     

    With this one I totally agree with you. That is why at the end I replaced all my windows PC's with Apple Macs. I just hope that it will not come time when I will replace Fibaro with other HA system for the same reasons!

     

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    @Sankotronic,

     

    I will just add 1 thing to my last comment.

     

    I personally showed this topic to person (I handed over my phone with this topic open) in Fibaro. That person is not from support but from different department. But I'm sure it will find its way to proper person. And yes, that person read your first post in this topic.

    Edited by jakub.jezek
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    2 hours ago, jakub.jezek said:

    And regarding Windows. Windows is full of sh*t and nobody wants to make smarthome based on Windows, so I do not care about time on my PC or if reboot after time settings are saved.

    Hi @jakub.jezek,

     

    I bought my HC2 in december last year. Since it arrived i was searching for information in order to get it working and was (am) reading this forum on daily basis extensively. Unfortunately i see every day users complaing about the sh*t in Fibaro's firmware. So in 9 month of reading i can say that Fibaro is very much comparable to Windows regarding that sh*t as you stated.

    So now i'm playing the devil's lawyer saying that nobody wants to make smarthome based on sh*t, if you know what i mean.

     

    Most of us are just humble users, not Fibaro partners and we just want to have reliable "smart" homes.

     

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    9 hours ago, jakub.jezek said:

    Guys sorry, but I play devil lawyer.

     

    Well, reboot after change in location is great feature and I like that.

     

    Time drift is an issue, that is true. But if I look at reports from installers and end-customers in CZ/SK. Time drift issue has a side effect (if you download time from internet), that sometimes you get year 1970 (mostly on hcl after unexpected reboot, such as 503 error).

     

    Now in last several months (there is where my notes goes), I did not any reports about time drift (customers and installers in cz/sk).

     

    Hi! I like your style! I'm not being sarcastic, I really mean that.

     

    For me, it is not about implementing the reboot. That is OK. I like the reboot after location change. No, that is not true, it can be dealt with, without a reboot but for a manual change a reboot it is acceptable.

     

    For me, it is all about COMMUNICATION. If you implement such a silent reboot, can they please add this at the top of the release notes:

     

    "WARNING! Possible BREAKING CHANGE! Setting the location via browser interface of API causes an immediate reboot. This is intentional. Please check your scripts if you use this feature before updating. If your calls the API after a reboot, your unit will end up in a reboot loop. Please contact support to fix this issue."

     

    Regarding drift... I understand what you are saying, but I do not know how other users experienced this drift. But let me explain mine. I often debug scripts on my PC. If that script is time sensitive, I sometimes notice 1 or 2 minutes difference between both system. That is when I manually intervene. So I would say that time sync on the HC is not correct. I guess it is about 2 minutes per month. That is the expected accuracy of a crystal oscillator, it is not a defect per se. So my educated guess is they did not correctly implement NTP. If the system syncs at boot, and you reboot once per month, you might never notice 1 or 2 minutes.

     

    Servers, routers or PCs running Linux or Windows do not reboot to sync time. That would be hilarious...

     

    Edited by petergebruers
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