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Dimmer 2 not turning completely off


George Basco

Question

I have 4 x 4w LED bulbs in a fixture that will not turn off completely with a Dimmer 2.   If I change one of the bulbs with a different type of LED, the problem goes away, but when all 4 are the same 4w bulb, they do not completely turn off.

 

The Dimmer 2 is wired with a neutral, so seems odds that it cannot turn off the load completely.


I have not tried a bypass, which might very well solve the problem, but why should I need a bypass when I have the Dimmer 2 wired with a neutral?

 

Thanks for any help with this issue..

 

 

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Guest spazpeker

Yes some bulbs don't go off even with Neutral, A dimmer 2 Bypass will fix the problem 

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  • Inquirer
  • But isn't this a bug with Dimmer 2 that should be fixed?   Why isn't the load completely switched off in the case of 3-wire installation?

     

    It's not always practical to install bypasses.

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    did you get an answer to this, i have same issue. 3 wire config and not turning of completely. 

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    On 5-11-2017 at 9:49 AM, George Basco said:

    But isn't this a bug with Dimmer 2 that should be fixed?   Why isn't the load completely switched off in the case of 3-wire installation?

     

    It's not always practical to install bypasses.

     

    @ George

     

    The dimmer is designed for 3 wire (live + load + neutral) and 2 wire operation (live + load to neutral).
    It needs a small current to operate, so in a 2 wire setup the only path for this operating current is via the load.
    Even in a 3 wire setup, this "leakage" current still flows through the load.
    This current may prevent light loads like LEDs from completely turning off.

    The bypass parallel to the LED's should fix the problem.

    So this a disadvantage of a feature, not a bug.

     

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  • Inquirer
  • Appreciate the explanation, but still feels like a bug to me.  The leakage current is not needed for operation in 3-wire state, and likely still happens to allow for simpler design?  Would like to see this fixed in future revs. 

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    Guest fat

    I installed bypass with all of my dimmer 2 modules as I have some LED lights that are only 11w being controlled by them. I don't have any issues with full off in my 3 wire setup at all so a bypass may be well worth trying on one circuit

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    2 hours ago, George Basco said:

    Appreciate the explanation, but still feels like a bug to me.  The leakage current is not needed for operation in 3-wire state, and likely still happens to allow for simpler design?  Would like to see this fixed in future revs. 

     

    It is an annoying problem and having to buy a "bypass" is unfortunate. If you are into electronics design, I can say one or two things... I think the most important thing is your LEDs might glow with a VERY small amount of current. I measured it on a so called "driverless COB" and we are talking about 10s of micro ampere (I do not have my notes, but that is the order of magnitude). Some LED designs contain specific measures to NOT make it glow. Also, electronic components are not ideal and they also need some form of protection, adding to that current. But then the older designs (TRIAC based) usually are a lot worse. Maybe they can make other design choices for "Dimmer 3"...

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    4 hours ago, George Basco said:

    Appreciate the explanation, but still feels like a bug to me.  The leakage current is not needed for operation in 3-wire state, and likely still happens to allow for simpler design?  Would like to see this fixed in future revs. 

     

    Most Z-Wave dimmers don't even support 2-wire operation which is most common in lighting systems.

    Fibaro's dimmers do. If you don't have a neutral at the mounting spot, providing one is a major hassle.

    I prefer a bypass over providing a neutral wire.

    Unfortunately Bypass2 is bulky and expensive (for what is inside, I presume 1 resistor and 1 HV-capacitor).

    I'm into electronic design. Disabling the "leakage" current in 3-wire operation is challenging.

     

    Supporting 2-wire operation is a major advantage over competitors but may require a bypass at very light loads.

    But feel free to file a feature request.

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    i cant even get my leds to go off fully even with 3 wire and they remain on ALL the time

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    21 minutes ago, Al3x said:

    i cant even get my leds to go off fully even with 3 wire and they remain on ALL the time

     

    Quite possible... Do you mean, fully on? Or "glowing"? Did you try a bypass, as was recommended to another user? Did you read my previous post?

     

    On 3/26/2018 at 9:12 AM, petergebruers said:

    It is an annoying problem and having to buy a "bypass" is unfortunate. If you are into electronics design, I can say one or two things... I think the most important thing is your LEDs might glow with a VERY small amount of current. I measured it on a so called "driverless COB" and we are talking about 10s of micro ampere (I do not have my notes, but that is the order of magnitude). Some LED designs contain specific measures to NOT make it glow. Also, electronic components are not ideal and they also need some form of protection, adding to that current. But then the older designs (TRIAC based) usually are a lot worse. Maybe they can make other design choices for "Dimmer 3"...

     

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    2 hours ago, Al3x said:

    i cant even get my leds to go off fully even with 3 wire and they remain on ALL the time

    @Al3x

     

    The leakage current (required to be able to operatie in 2-wire mode) is also flowing in 3-wire mode and keeps the LEDs glowing.
    Put the bypass accros the LEDs and they go fully off (at least, this worked for me).

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    37 minutes ago, BitBucket said:

    @Al3x

     

    The leakage current (required to be able to operatie in 2-wire mode) is also flowing in 3-wire mode and keeps the LEDs glowing.
    Put the bypass accros the LEDs and they go fully off (at least, this worked for me).

     

    6 recessed lights and i put the bypass on one of them as i assume all you need is a bypass on the light circuit? 

    44 minutes ago, BitBucket said:

    @Al3x

     

    The leakage current (required to be able to operatie in 2-wire mode) is also flowing in 3-wire mode and keeps the LEDs glowing.
    Put the bypass accros the LEDs and they go fully off (at least, this worked for me).

    what do you mean put it across the LEDs?

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    8 hours ago, BitBucket said:

    The leakage current (required to be able to operatie in 2-wire mode) is also flowing in 3-wire mode and keeps the LEDs glowing.

     

    In case of 3-wire mode the current is much, much smaller than in 2-wire mode (we're talking about "Dimmer 2") so it is worth trying to go from 2-wire to 3-wire if that is possible, before buying a "bypass 2". But of course, people often use 2-wire because they are missing "that third wire" so that might be not be a practical option. And copper cable is not cheap either...

     

    Do you agree?

     

    8 hours ago, Al3x said:

     

    6 recessed lights and i put the bypass on one of them as i assume all you need is a bypass on the light circuit? 

    what do you mean put it across the LEDs?

     

    All LEDs are in parallel, so one side of them connects to a wire, let's call that A. The other side connects to B.Now you connect one lead of the bypass to A and one lead to B. You can put the bypass anywhere, as long as it connects to A and B. For instance, if you have the space, you can put it near the first LED. 

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    2 hours ago, petergebruers said:

     

    In case of 3-wire mode the current is much, much smaller than in 2-wire mode (we're talking about "Dimmer 2") so it is worth trying to go from 2-wire to 3-wire if that is possible, before buying a "bypass 2". But of course, people often use 2-wire because they are missing "that third wire" so that might be not be a practical option. And copper cable is not cheap either...

     

    Do you agree?

     

     

    All LEDs are in parallel, so one side of them connects to a wire, let's call that A. The other side connects to B.Now you connect one lead of the bypass to A and one lead to B. You can put the bypass anywhere, as long as it connects to A and B. For instance, if you have the space, you can put it near the first LED. 

    I have used 3 wire config for all my lights and found I needed a bypass for them all. if there is no neutral at switch I stick it in ceiling. 

    I added the bypass to the last light a and b like others but it doesn't seem to work. maybe I need to add it at the start. 

     

    I am still not convinced this neutral avoids the bypass as I have not managed to get away with any light config using gu10 or b27 that didn't need it

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    well I added the bypass which made a huge difference but they still remain glowing. maybe these led bulbs just don't turn off with the fibaro module installed. 

     

    I added the bypass to the end light as it was easiest to get too. 

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    1 hour ago, Al3x said:

    I have used 3 wire config for all my lights and found I needed a bypass for them all.

     

    In my house, I use "Philips Warm Glow" LEDs on Dimmer 2 , 3-wire, without a bypass. So it is possible.

     

    It is quite possible, newer LED lamp designs do need the bypass and I would like to speculate why:

     

    • Some of them do not use a real "power supply". They are sometimes called driverless COB. Some "filament lamps" are if this type (the ones with 2 or 4 narrow yellow strips). Most of my 10 - 20 W flood lights are still the older type, and they do not glow or blink on Dimmer 2 (they are also not dimmable, but that is by design). I do have 2 newer "driverless" floodlights. These *definitely* stay "on" without a bypass.
    • Some of them have become extremely efficient and also the "power supply chips" use less start-up current. So some of the newer designs either glow or blink with a tiny amount of current.
    1 hour ago, Al3x said:

    if there is no neutral at switch I stick it in ceiling.

     

    I do recommend 3-wire over 2-wires. It has advantages: it usually offers a wider dimming range. But yeah, most users are kind of forced to live with 2-wire (unless they  want to overhaul their circuit(s). So I understand "try 3-wire" is not as easy as it sounds.

     

    1 hour ago, Al3x said:

    I added the bypass to the last light a and b like others but it doesn't seem to work. maybe I need to add it at the start. 

     

    9 minutes ago, Al3x said:

    well I added the bypass which made a huge difference but they still remain glowing.

     

    I see these possible explanations:

    • You have found a new bulb type, one that still glows while you have a "bypass 2" connected to your LEDs. It is of course possible, but I have checked the operating principle of the bypass long ago, my memory is vague, but it is not a resistor or a capacitor. It is an active circuit, and it keeps the *voltage* across your load really low... But I cannot remember the details. Maybe I should buy your lamp and redo the test. BTW you need an oscilloscope to see what is happening, a multimeter won't help a lot.
    • You did not do a calibration. Take note of parameters 1 and 2, I might need them later. Then set parameter 13 to 2 (meaning "calibrate with bypass 2"). After about 20 seconds, check the result and again take note of p1 and p2. I expect them to be different now.
    • You accidentally got a "bypass 1". They are not compatible. Dimmer 1 and 2 have their own bypass.

    I could test one of my driverless LEDs (known to stay "on" when dimmer is turned to 0) on dimmer 2 + bypass, but not until next Friday.

     

    This is anecdotal, but I have one driverless LED in the garden, it is connected to an FGS-223 + a long cable. That is a single pole relay and the circuit has a bit of leakage as well. The 20 W floodlight  glows when it is off! The leakage current through system is big enough to make it noticeably light up at dusk... This is strictly speaking forbidden in Belgium and also a bad idea, I still have to fix that... There are no double pole Z-Wave relays, so I'll have to add a slave relay. I bet you have never have heard of that issue before... This newer type of LED is the reason I started to measure leakage current.

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    Thanks peter now that you mention it all the newer LEDS glow and the older ones i have in the house do not. I have done a recalibration but that has never really done anything for me using non dimmable bulbs.. Maybe what i have is the best it will ever be with current tech unless i use somb bulbs that increase the current 50W ++ 

     

    Ive done nearly all the rooms in the house apart from hallway and porch so this landing is just a slight delay as i thought i could get away without a bypass when i used them in all other rooms.

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    17 minutes ago, Al3x said:

    Thanks peter now that you mention it all the newer LEDS glow and the older ones i have in the house do not.

     

    I am glad I could at least explain things... If "bypass 2" and calibration do not help, I do not have an answer right now. I'll see if I can do some more tests next Friday.

     

    19 minutes ago, Al3x said:

    Maybe what i have is the best it will ever be with current tech unless i use somb bulbs that increase the current 50W ++ 

     

    If these LEDS are "driverless" even going to 50 W does not help... Because the faint current will make the LEDs glow anyway. That is because all leakage current in this type of lamp gets converted to light.

     

    You are quite correct, that 50 W is in the manual, you did not misinterpret this! And I'd say, in practice, that worked for almost all CFL and LEDs until 5 years ago. This 50 W represents "some average bulb type" and it is in the spec, not because of the leakage current, but because the FGD-212 "steals power" from your load, to keep its own circuitry going (in 2-wire setup). Af the lamp is very low wattage, the FGD cannot steal power from it. When you switch to 3-wire, the operating current of the dimmer does not pass through the lamp, so you'd expect you do not need a bypass and "off means off". But then there is still the leakage current, which was totally insignificant for incandescent lamps and nearly never a problem for older LED power supply designs. Because... the leakage current would be smaller that the startup current of the LED power supply. Newer designs have almost zero startup current and every bit of current puts out some light. 

     

    If I remember correctly, I did this test... I connect one wire of my floodlight to earth (only try this with an *earth* connection if you want to repeat this experiment!). Then I hold the other wire with my fingers. My body picks up a tiny amount of current and you can see the individual lights glow on hte chip. Very faint, but noticeable! This happens regardless watt specs (I have 5 W, 10 W and 30 W driverless COB). Pure "energy harvesting" (not true, you still have to pay the electricity bill, to pay for the electric field in the house that causes it).

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    thanks peter, new order for more bypass. its a pity there is no parameter to directly passthrough instead of having to rewire the device until i get a bypass

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    Please post connection with 3-wire. I have same issue. Thanks.

    Do It's correct my installation?

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

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