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Heating algorithm not good at all


adyboss
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Hello,

Maybe I am wrong or maybe I don't know how to use the Climate automation on Fibaro HC2 together with Fibaro TRV (Radiator Termostat Head + sensor) but I consider the heating algorithm very strange...
Here is my problem and what is happening with my automation scheme.

I am using the following:
- Fibaro HC2 - 4.160
- Gas central heating
- Fibaro TRV (radiator head thermostat with external temperature sensor)
- Danfoss Link RS Z-Wave (Room thermostat and temperature sensor)
- VD - Heating Override v1.3 - @Dave Harrison 
- Scene 1 - Multi-room Call for Heat - @Dave Harrison - local threshold = 0.3
- Scene 2 - Room Thermostat Override - @Dave Harrison
- Scene 3 - Main scene for time based events control {v 1.2.5} - @Sankotronic
- Three rooms:
   1. Bedroom: Fibaro TRV + external temp sensor + Danfoss Link RS Z-Wave (set as main temperature sensor and main thermostat)
   2. Kids room: Danfoss Link RS Z-Wave (set as main temperature sensor and main thermostat). I have NO radiator thermostat!
   3. Living room: nothing :) 
 
I have set the heating panel to 23 degrees all day/night (24 hours) in all rooms.

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Because of this, Fibaro TRV is automatically set at 23 as permanent.
If in Bedroom I have 23 C, the Fibaro TRV valve is OFF, Heating system OFF. Until now all normal.
 

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But, if in Bedroom I have 22.4, the valve is still OFF (!) or almost - gas central heating is started. I know this because the Bedroom's radiator (Fibarot TRV) is cold and the Kids room radiator (without valve) is hot.To make it warmer, I have to set the Fibaro TRV at 24 C. Only then, after I hear the noise from TRV's motor, the radiator become warmer. But... is not enough.
 

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Small flames meaning radiator valve opened too little
 

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Big flames meaning radiator valve wide opened.
 
Think only about heating the Room 1: Bedroom.
So, the first problem is that the valves are closing "progressive" in a wrong way explained below.
It is wrong because if I have the heating panel set at 23 C and the temp sensor measure 22.4 C, the valve is opened too little in order to rise the room temperature to 23 C. Same if I want to make 24 C when temp sensor measure 23 C. The radiator is barely lukewarm and unable to rise the room temperature. In this time, the central gas is running (consuming gas and electricity).

To become HOT I have to set the thermostat (or even the valve radiator) at 26 C (or more). I can hear again noise for opening valve and radiator become hot.

As high I set the Thermostat temperature, as more the Fibaro TRV is opening.

 

The correct way is to open the radiator valve (Fibaro TRV) as much it can and when the measured temperature (by temp sensor) will become closer to the set temperature (by thermostat), the valve will close (progressive to full close).

In this way will be avoided to run the gas central without heating the radiator because of closed valve...

 

Or as I've started... maybe I am wrong :)

 
 
Edited by adyboss
Correction:  2. Kids room: Danfoss Link RS Z-Wave (set as main temperature sensor and main thermostat). I have NO radiator thermostat!
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  • 2
6 hours ago, samuelAN said:

There is no firmware update available and no estimated date for this firmware.

 

This is exactly as you said, a useless product at 80€. I have dismounted all Fibaro valves and replaced them by my old mechanical valves because I was heating all my rooms by exceeding the setpoint. I have lost a lot of money in gas already due to these ... valves.

 

And the best is that we have no answer from Fibaro. Even a preliminary date.

 

I am afraid that this product will just be discontinued by Fibaro in the following weeks. Moreover , it is no more available in most of European suppliers (or only suppliers stocks).

 

38 minutes ago, marcwau said:

I am not so sure that the product will be discontinued.

I received a number of HCs and sensors today, they are still being sold by Amazon and others (not the Starter Pack, only the separate boxes).

The ones I got have a production date of mid January, serial numbers around 7000, and a software version 4.

 

The installation was relatively smooth, except that the pairing of the sensor took several attempts before the sensor was found.

 

But the HC immediately showed a total "disobedience".... it was set to 16 degrees, the temperature in the room was 20 degrees, and instead of closing, it stayed open all the time, so the temperature in the room only went up instead of down.

 

What I find very hard to understand is that some 7000 units have been shipped (and orders are still being fulfilled) while probably none of them works properly because the software (even version 4!!) does not work. Imagine what version 1, 2 or 3 must have been like...

 

And in the mean time, not a word from Fibaro. A text book case of how (product) crisis management should NOT be handled.

The more units get out there, the more Fibaro will have to take back if the problems can't be fixed with new firmware alone.

But as long as Fibaro totally avoids the subject, or even commits to a time line, the problems can only get worse before they get better... for us, and for them.

 

 

Hello guys!

 

In the first half of March there will be a firmware update for the Heat Controller.

 

The product will not be discontinued. 

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  • Inquirer
  • Bedroom has TRV (Fibaro). The other are free (no thermostat at all) or mechanical valves at this moment because I wanted to compare the radiators temperature (heat difference between them in oC).

    Does it matter?

    If I had only one room I had the same problem: opening valve too little when the measured temperature is a difference of only 0.8 oC from set thermostat.

     

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    10 minutes ago, adyboss said:

    Bedroom has TRV (Fibaro). The other are free (no thermostat at all) or mechanical valves at this moment because I wanted to compare the radiators temperature (heat difference between them in oC).

    Does it matter?

     

    Yes, if you *did* have a fairly recent heating system and all radiators *did* have TRV, I know your setup can run like mine.

    Because you say you still have rooms without TRV (so knobs with no numbers on it) I cannot help you.

     

    Unfortunately... your current setup is very complex as a result of this, you have several things at once going on.

     

    Also... you might have issues with that FGT-001, not opening or not closing has been reported by several users.

     

    But even without that particular bug, you will have great difficulty managing your heating system. You have added "control" to "control" to "control" and they fight each other. It is a bit like driving a car, and hitting the brake and gas pedal at the same time, it might work, but it is difficult to get the expected result.

     

    Sorry, I am out..., unless you want me to point to some of my post so you can get some background on heating systems and how I manage mine... For background only, because you cannot use it unless you contact a heating specialist and make sure your setup can be managed like mine.

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  • I don't consider it very complex.

    We can simplify my problem resuming only to one room: the Bedroom.

    How I can heat the bedroom but to be sure that it will not overheating it? Here is Fibaro TRV made for: opening the radiator valve when measured temperature is low compared with the desired one in heating panel and closing the radiator valve when temperature reaching the desired one in heating panel.

    Am I wrong?

     

    @petergebruers I saw in one of your posts:

    I've been testing the FGT-001 + sensor for a few days now and mine does report temperature (but not very often) and matches the nearest UBS + DS18B20 sensor. However... I think the thermostat itself sometimes........ errrrr.... crashes? Yesterday, it heated the room to 24 °C and now it doesn't open the valve enough, it's 19.5 °C. I moved the sensor closer to the head, put it on the floor and waited for an hour. It reports 18°C and still does not open the valve. Setpoint is 21 or 22 °C. 

     

    Don't you consider it if not the same, at least similar to my problem? :) 

     

    PS: I saw now that it exist another topic named "Heat Controller". I think there is a better place for discussion. I will try to move the current one there.

     

    Edited by adyboss
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    1 minute ago, adyboss said:

    How I can heat the bedroom but to be sure that it will not overheating it? Here is Fibaro TRV made for: opening the radiator valve when measured temperature is low compared with the desired one in heating panel and closing the radiator valve when temperature reaching the desired one in heating panel.

    Am I wrong?

     

    On a very high level, yes, it should "open" and "close" to get to the desired temperature. But not as you think...

     

    It does not do that simply by going from open to close and vice versa, because that would not give good control. Also, it tries to conserve battery.

     

    All Z-Wave valves use some form of modified (advanced or self-learning) PID algorithm. The algorithm is IN the TRV, the HC has nothing to do with it, but you added scripts to control the setpoint and a room thermostat and scripts to turn on the boiler... It is much more complex than you think.

     

    Please login or register to see this link.

     

    So even without the "bug" you have to take into account some "timing". Danfoss LC12 and LC13 for example can appear "not to respond at all" but they do control temperature, but they are very slow to respond (relative to the FGT).

     

    BTW the FGT-001 can be set to "open" and "close" (so no temperature setpoint) - so you can run your own algorithm (if temperature of room > or < the close or open) - if you want Lua code, make a graphic scene and convert it to Lua. But be careful, if you set it to open and something crashes - which part of your system is going to limit room temperature?

     

    9 minutes ago, adyboss said:

    I think there is a better place for discussion. I will try to move the current one there.

     

    Regarding the bug... yes please...

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  • 3 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    All Z-Wave valves use some form of modified (advanced or self-learning) PID algorithm. The algorithm is IN the TRV, the HC has nothing to do with it, but you added scripts to control the setpoint and a room thermostat and scripts to turn on the boiler... It is much more complex than you think.

     

     

    As I said, I consider it a wrong (bad) algorithm.

     

     

    4 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    So even without the "bug" you have to take into account some "timing". Danfoss LC12 and LC13 for example can appear "not to respond at all" but they do control temperature, but they are very slow to respond (relative to the FGT).

     

     

    That's why I bought Fibaro and not Danfoss: to be part of the same manufacturer and to have a better integration. And now I have doubts about being "better"...

     

     

    6 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    BTW the FGT-001 can be set to "open" and "close" (so no temperature setpoint) - so you can run your own algorithm (if temperature of room > or < the close or open) - if you want Lua code, make a graphic scene and convert it to Lua. But be careful, if you set it to open and something crashes - which part of your system is going to limit room temperature?

     

     

    I am using the @Dave Harrison's schemes for heating and as I saw, they are running very good. I will contact him to see if he can help me with the "open/close" valves in his LUA scenes (without temperature setpoint from algorithm).

    If something is crashing? I will think on that on the moment. Until then, I prefer to get worm instead of getting cold :)

     

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    1 minute ago, adyboss said:

    I am using the @Dave Harrison's schemes for heating and as I saw, they are running very good. I will contact him to see if he can help me with the "open/close" valves in his LUA scenes (without temperature setpoint from algorithm).

    If something is crashing? I will think on that on the moment. Until then, I prefer to get worm instead of getting cold :)

     

    The commands are specific to the FGT-001.

     

    Hot may be like 26 °C or maybe 30 °C, or even higher, it depends on your setup.

     

    If you want recommendations on what to with your FGT, I recommend you send a mail to [email protected]

     

    I can only say, they are working on a firmware update...

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  • 5 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    I can only say, they are working on a firmware update...

     

    Yes... unfortunately first we are paying and then they are working...

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    Just now, adyboss said:

     

    Yes... unfortunately first we are paying and then they are working...

     

    Unfortunate indeed... Though I think they invested a lot in this product and they'll have to fix it. But yeah, you probably have been trying to understand what is happening and if it sometimes does not respond as you expect, you wonder what is going on and then you have to research, post on the forum and so on.

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    Hi, I got my first FGT-001 last days. I have put big expectations on this product. Really have a "ice shower" reading this topic now.

    My big project (~10 x FGT-001) is now waiting for a test of this unit. And it seems like it will fail.

    :(

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    24 minutes ago, jack.daniels said:

    Hi, I got my first FGT-001 last days. I have put big expectations on this product. Really have a "ice shower" reading this topic now.

    My big project (~10 x FGT-001) is now waiting for a test of this unit. And it seems like it will fail.

    :(

    Please, post here some results. I now considering if i should by Fibaro TRVs or wait for

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    in Z-Wave.

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    Some users say they have no issues.

     

    I experienced good regulation most of the time, but the it gets stuck (I speculate it crashes).

     

    I posted a graph showing what I mean here:

     

     

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    Because it is so complex to decide (PID) if a HC needs heating it should give a status reading if a HC requires heating from the boiler or not.

    I hope Fibaro can introduce this in a future update. Deciding if the boiler needs to be on or off (LUA) only on temperature reading of the room is not the right way.

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    Put me also on the list of people that are saying that FGT-001 is not working.

    Oh boy it is becoming a long list.

     

    But what i do not really get, is that fact a product can be be on the market that is so ill tested, poorly (designed) programmed and bad documented at the same time.

    This product is no way near a product that should be in retail packaging. this should be more likely a dev-board like product that is being fully tested en programmed for a version 1.0 Beta, to be glued later on,

    so that that the CEO can take it home to test it at his home, he either comes back the next day with a big smile being proud of a good product to be on the market, 

    or has the gut to fire some people that day.

     

    Either way the only thing that happened with this product as a can see it.

    1. they had an idea

    2. they asked a designer to  design a product and packaging

    3. they programmed a initial e-prom,  and tested it really can get updated later(so that part is tested, thumbs up for that ).

    4. fabricated 2000 of these things, shipped, and said OK lets see how we going to program it properly now.

     

    I have no problem being a beta tester or even an alpha tester,  but please for the sake of your own programmers let people choose to be one or not, that way they know they don't get a finished product, and give them a free sensor or something, or even better give them a badge on the forum "The Real Moron, Yeah I am the Tester here!" 

    But don't give your programmers all the crap because marketing is rushing things to the market.

     

    Just my 2 cents!

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    On 26-1-2018 at 3:24 PM, Fibaro said:

    The topic has been moved from "

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    " to "

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    ".

     

    Temat został przeniesiony z "

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    " do "

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    ".

    Wy is Fibaro not giving decent response?

     

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    I sent an email to Fibaro two weeks ago.. and no answer.

     

    This is the first time I have such a lack of support for a product. This is really a

    shame.

     

    I have contacted a consumer association hoping that I will get answers to know when this product will be useable...

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    these TRV are so fuc*n useless -.-" is the firmware update already estimated? I got 5 of these devices and and cant use them :-/

     

    some of them are heating (just a bit??), some of them are not even on....They only work if I use them manually....

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