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FGT-001 - New Firmware Available: 4.0 > 4.3


Gianluca S.

Question

Hi Guys,

The new firmare is aivaliable for our FGT-001 heating valves.

The version is 4.3. Im updating my 6 valves. Each valved take more than 20 minutes to complete the procedure.

Cross the finger and share the experience....

 

 If you are running HC FW older than 1.462 (beta) do not perform remove/reset/include after update TRV's FW. 

(Thanks to adyboss for the suggestion)

Edited by Gianluca S.
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On 13-3-2018 at 9:33 AM, svaleb said:

And then !

How to update this x##x%?? thing if you have an other controller and no access to a HC2 or HCL !!! ???

 

Find someone in your neighborhood who has a HC ;)

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Fibaro has identified an issue in 4.3 which affects my particular setup in one room. Based on detailed feedback and "blackbox logs" from myself and a few other FGT-001 owners, they are able to improve the next firmware version. If you have an issue, please gather the logs. It is really helping other Fibaro and other customers.

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If 4.3 is only a partial improvement, but still cannot ensure that the TRV keeps the set temperature constant, is there any point in upgrading to 4.3?

Shouldn't Fibaro retract this firmware immediately until they come up with a better one?

 

If valves still open or close when they shouldn't (as do mine), why should I go through the trouble of updating?

I have 18 Heat Controllers with temperature sensors - yes, I know, a (way too) big leap of faith at the time  - which I obviously regret for now, and i can only hope that it will ever get fixed properly.

Anyway, it takes A LOT of work to dismount 18 valves, bring them close to the HC2, upgrade them, then reinstall them.

If I do that now, I can probably start over in a couple of .... days/weeks/months... when the new firmware arrives?

What is the timeline for this second attempt to fix the HC? 

 

I fear that, once again, we are left in the dark and we will probably face a lot more trial and error.

Fibaro must be the most stubborn company on earth, when it comes to communicating with its users when their products exhibit such serious problems.

There may well be a "black box" in the HC firmware now, but there is a big "black hole" at Fibaro's HQ.

 

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hello @marcwau, I understand what you're saying and feeling as well, but I've tried the new version and in my case I'm finding it much better then the previous/original one. Why don't you try to update just one or two TRVs just to help you making an opinion of this new version, maybe it will improve the situation. 

I'm sure Fibaro is working in order to improve this product, but once again I fully understand what you mean 18 TRVs is not a small investment ! and we are all expecting an added value of such a product.

 

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I can't put it any better than @Tony270570 but maybe two small things. You can try to leave the FGTs on the valves, but calibrate them after the update (enter menu, "white" option) to make sure it is not a valve issue. If you still experience bad overshoot, reset = remove the external sensor and remove the batteries. Because under certain conditions with that sensor it can still crash.

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On 3/14/2018 at 10:19 PM, petergebruers said:

 

Quote

Out of curiosity, is your FGT external sensor in the same spot as the device that measured that 20.3 degrees? What kind of sensor do you use?

 

No, it's on the other side of the room, at 1.5m height. An additional (extra motion sensor), measures the same temperature as the external heat controller sensor. 

The sensor I talk about now is the sensor that is accompanied with the FGT; so the bluetooth one. 

 

On 3/14/2018 at 10:19 PM, petergebruers said:

 

Quote

 

It is too soon to tell. But I'd like to make a suggestion. One of my FGTs seemed ok, but the other not ok, but I think it is better now. Unfortunately, I tried this only a few hours ago so I really think it is too soon to tell. But by trying this, you might help diagnose this issue. So, if you find the time, and only *IF* you find the time... Would it be possible to do what I did, in that exact order, with that FGT + sensor:

  • exclude FGT
  • reset ext sensor
  • reset FGT
  • include FGT
  • add ext sensor
  • move FGT to room (controlled by heating panel)

 

 

I did everything, except using the heating panel. This I don't use yet, since first I would like to get everything to work. Do you think this makes a difference and if so, why? 
All the steps did not help yet. It keeps heating while it shouldn't. Sometimes temperature is more than 2 degrees off.  
 

On 3/14/2018 at 10:19 PM, petergebruers said:

 

Mine does not do that, calibration was done only at installation time. Does it respond to on/off (magenta/white if you turn the knob)? I mean, does it fully open/close?

 

There are many different valve manufacturers, it might be a mechanical problem, tolerance...

 

It does respond to fully open and closed. So I guess only the external sensing does not work with the valve. It randomly opens and closes... 

 

Hopefully we can tackle this problem. Thanks for your help in all! 

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44 minutes ago, djefmo said:

 

No, it's on the other side of the room, at 1.5m height. An additional (extra motion sensor), measures the same temperature as the external heat controller sensor. 

The sensor I talk about now is the sensor that is accompanied with the FGT; so the bluetooth one. 

 

I did everything, except using the heating panel. This I don't use yet, since first I would like to get everything to work. Do you think this makes a difference and if so, why? 
All the steps did not help yet. It keeps heating while it shouldn't. Sometimes temperature is more than 2 degrees off.  
 

 

It does respond to fully open and closed. So I guess only the external sensing does not work with the valve. It randomly opens and closes... 

 

Hopefully we can tackle this problem. Thanks for your help in all! 

How long is your room? Sensor should be within 5 meters from TRV. Is could be that it is out of range.

2 hours ago, marcwau said:

If 4.3 is only a partial improvement, but still cannot ensure that the TRV keeps the set temperature constant, is there any point in upgrading to 4.3?

Shouldn't Fibaro retract this firmware immediately until they come up with a better one?

 

If valves still open or close when they shouldn't (as do mine), why should I go through the trouble of updating?

I have 18 Heat Controllers with temperature sensors - yes, I know, a (way too) big leap of faith at the time  - which I obviously regret for now, and i can only hope that it will ever get fixed properly.

Anyway, it takes A LOT of work to dismount 18 valves, bring them close to the HC2, upgrade them, then reinstall them.

If I do that now, I can probably start over in a couple of .... days/weeks/months... when the new firmware arrives?

What is the timeline for this second attempt to fix the HC? 

 

I fear that, once again, we are left in the dark and we will probably face a lot more trial and error.

Fibaro must be the most stubborn company on earth, when it comes to communicating with its users when their products exhibit such serious problems.

There may well be a "black box" in the HC firmware now, but there is a big "black hole" at Fibaro's HQ.

 

I updated mine trough zwave network (30+ devices and not near HC). That went perfect. It might put some load on your network and take some longer....

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48 minutes ago, djefmo said:

No, it's on the other side of the room, at 1.5m height. An additional (extra motion sensor), measures the same temperature as the external heat controller sensor. 

The sensor I talk about now is the sensor that is accompanied with the FGT; so the bluetooth one.

 

OK

 

48 minutes ago, djefmo said:

I did everything, except using the heating panel. This I don't use yet, since first I would like to get everything to work. Do you think this makes a difference and if so, why?

 

You do not have to use it.

 

If you use the heating panel, the contents of that heating panel are transferred to the valve. So it operates in a different way than when you do not use the heating panel.

 

50 minutes ago, djefmo said:

Sometimes temperature is more than 2 degrees off.

 

50 minutes ago, djefmo said:

All the steps did not help yet. It keeps heating while it shouldn't. Sometimes temperature is more than 2 degrees off.

 

I recognize those symptoms. But to be sure... Can you please generate "blackboxs logs" and send it via PM? Fibaro can analyze them and confirm if your problem is similar to mine...

 

At the moment, I recommend you try without the sensor. So reset the sensor (keep the pin pushed until the blue LED blinks 3 times) then remove the coin cell.

It will take your FGT several hours to notice the removal and revert to "head" control. So please ignore the behaviour of the TRV the first 6 hours.

You can of course turn down the set-point right now so it stops heating.

 

7 minutes ago, rdfeij said:

How long is your room? Sensor should be within 5 meters from TRV. Is could be that it is out of range.

 

Clever thinking, and good you mention this. But this is probably not his problem. The HC notifies in case the sensor gets disconnected. If @djefmo follows my advise, after a (long) while he'll notice the FGT is operating without sensor. The "blackbox logs" can confirm this.

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Good evening guys,

 

Regarding the overshoot, what is the pressure in your system? Maybe the FGT's have trouble closing  against the pressure?

I know the danfoss shutter inside the valve (can't think of a better word atm )  is wedge shaped so they cut thru the water and it *shouldn't* be a problem. But maybe it is.

My house: ground floor, first floor, attic. I have 4 FGT's on the first floor and my combi kettle is in the attic. The pressure in the attic is 1.9 bar while heating, there is an increase of pressure of 0.1 bar (if I'm correct) per meter.

So the pressure at my FGT's is about 1.9 + ~0.2, so 2.1 bar. 

I have overshoot in some rooms, 2 have very old valves that will be replaced when the rebuild of my house gets to that room.

And 1 is a new valve but its very close to the kettle.

 

I'll try to lower the pressure to 1.7bar while heating tomorrow and see if it makes any difference (can't do it now because the kids are asleep and the kettle is directly above them).

 

Jim

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28 minutes ago, jimicr said:

Regarding the overshoot, what is the pressure in your system? Maybe the FGT's have trouble closing  against the pressure?

 

28 minutes ago, jimicr said:

So the pressure at my FGT's is about 1.9 + ~0.2, so 2.1 bar.

 

Also very clever thinking. Water pressure is not an issue. But you do bring up an interesting topic: valves!

 

If you turn to "OFF" does it stay cool? No hissing sound? Then it is OK.

 

Regarding the math... The valve does not really have to act against 1.9 bar. Both sides of the valve connect to the same hydraulic system, and if your pump would not be running, both left side and right side of the valve experience 1.9 bar. It is in fact the pump + the pressure differential caused by hot versus cold water (natural convection) that has to be overcome. Some pumps have a knob to change speed or pressure. The pressure on a valve depends on the opening of the other valves (and type of valves).

 

However! You are very correct in say that "closing a valve" or running a valve, lets say, below 10 % can be challenging. And some valves might be worn, so maybe they do not fully close.

 

This can be determined by analysing the "blackbox logs"!

 

The long strokes (1-2 seconds of whirring sound) when it closes come from the TRV, when it closes the valve completely (not in all cases, but when it is close to 0% then decides to go to 0).

 

EDIT: found in a guide: differential pressure should be less than 0.2 bar to avoid valve noise.

Edited by petergebruers
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Thanks for your inside to this Peter!

 

Here is the scenario we all are doing: removing the existing contolle head and mounting our shining new FGT's with all expectations it will run out of the box.

Like you said the valves cann have signs of wear and tear and not able to completely close (at least by a small battery powered drive). But the valves can also have debris build up inside (The black goo that is in every system) and preventing the valve closing as well.

At work on older big systems I have seen complete radiators being blocked by it and needed to be flushed (by force).

 

I am working on my heating system, replacing and rebuilding often and have to bleed a lot of water and the goo that flushes out.

If it is possible and the people having overshoot can try to have a look at the base of their heating? Pressure, state of the valves and black goo build up.

 

I think it's very hard for Fibaro to take in account the base state of every system the FGT's get mounted on.

 

P.s @petergebruers, I have a closed system with one of those nice red expansion barrels. But I agree with pressure difference like you explained :>

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1 hour ago, petergebruers said:
Quote

 

OK

 

 

You do not have to use it.

 

If you use the heating panel, the contents of that heating panel are transferred to the valve. So it operates in a different way than when you do not use the heating panel.

 

 

OK. 

 

Quote

I recognize those symptoms. But to be sure... Can you please generate "blackboxs logs" and send it via PM? Fibaro can analyze them and confirm if your problem is similar to mine...

Sure thing; it's generating the log as we speak. Thanks! 

 

Quote

At the moment, I recommend you try without the sensor. So reset the sensor (keep the pin pushed until the blue LED blinks 3 times) then remove the coin cell.

It will take your FGT several hours to notice the removal and revert to "head" control. So please ignore the behaviour of the TRV the first 6 hours.

You can of course turn down the set-point right now so it stops heating.

 

 

Quote

Clever thinking, and good you mention this. But this is probably not his problem. The HC notifies in case the sensor gets disconnected. If @djefmo follows my advise, after a (long) while he'll notice the FGT is operating without sensor. The "blackbox logs" can confirm this.

 

That's indeed worthwhile mentioning; its a small room. @rdfeij The sensor is only 1,5m away. And there is a connection, since its being updated in HC2. 

Edited by djefmo
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17 minutes ago, jimicr said:

Thanks for your inside to this Peter!

 

I am glad you like it!

 

17 minutes ago, jimicr said:

Like you said the valves cann have signs of wear and tear and not able to completely close (at least by a small battery powered drive).

 

Yes, well, FGT tries to find the IN and OUT point of the valve during calibration and if that fails, it will report an error. But IN/OUT does not mean fully closed/fully open indeed!

 

The FGT has a sensor near the valve, so it can detect a failed valve, to some extent, but AFAIK it does not report and error. But the valve opening and the valve temperature are recorded in the "blackbox logs" so support can check that! If they see "valve is set to 0 but valve temp = 27 (for example)", then they know it leaks.

 

17 minutes ago, jimicr said:

But the valves can also have debris build up inside (The black goo that is in every system) and preventing the valve closing as well.

 

Indeed, good point! I once had a small metal fragment in an overpressure valve, it embedded itself when I tested the valve. So it did not fully close. Now I know how many buckets of water I have in my system ;-)

 

17 minutes ago, jimicr said:

P.s @petergebruers, I have a closed system with one of those nice red expansion barrels.

 

Oooh! You still remember what an "open" system is! I never thought anyone would read that sentence as meaning "a system without an expansion tank". My parents' house had an open system 25 years ago... 

 

I am sorry for my bad wording and I am sorry if I confused anyone, I have rephrased that sentence:

 

"Both sides of the valve connect to the same hydraulic system, and if your pump would not be running, both left side and right side of the valve experience 1.9 bar."

 

Better?

 

 

 

Edited by petergebruers
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4 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

Indeed, good point! I once had a small metal fragment in an overpressure valve, it embedded itself when I tested the valve. So it did not fully close. Now I now how many buckets of water I have in my system ;-)

 

I did the same twice and one time while filling and bleeding air from the system I made the mistake of running the kettle/ pump against a "closed"system, I had closed all valves to get the air out and wanted to flow the water to get the remaining.

My rule now: if the overpressure valve has been breached in anyway, replace it.

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18 minutes ago, jimicr said:
Quote

 

Thanks for your inside to this Peter!

 

Here is the scenario we all are doing: removing the existing contolle head and mounting our shining new FGT's with all expectations it will run out of the box.

Like you said the valves cann have signs of wear and tear and not able to completely close (at least by a small battery powered drive). But the valves can also have debris build up inside (The black goo that is in every system) and preventing the valve closing as well.

At work on older big systems I have seen complete radiators being blocked by it and needed to be flushed (by force).

 

 

This could indeed be an important issue. However, in my case, I had to replace the radiator completely before I could install the Fibaro Heat Controller, since I had an old connector (no radiator valve). From my experience I can tell that at least I have temperature overshoots with a completely new valve. It does however open and closes correctly. 

 

1 hour ago, petergebruers said:

At the moment, I recommend you try without the sensor. So reset the sensor (keep the pin pushed until the blue LED blinks 3 times) then remove the coin cell.

It will take your FGT several hours to notice the removal and revert to "head" control. So please ignore the behaviour of the TRV the first 6 hours.

You can of course turn down the set-point right now so it stops heating.

 

I now disconnected the sensor. I will net you know how this affects the heating and potential overshoots!

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Thanks for your reply @djefmo, Tomorrow I am going to lower the pressure for testing purposes and because by this state I can bleed and fill my system blind folded, just to see how the FGT than behaves.

Will report back!

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2 hours ago, petergebruers said:

If you turn to "OFF" does it stay cool? No hissing sound? Then it is OK.

@petergebruers

I'm still testing, and i have to redo my testing to be sure

environment:

HCL with 4.162 BETA

FTG wit 3.4

(Heating pressure on the boiler 1.6 )

 

sleeping room has 1 fgt with sensor

Bathroom has 2 fgt with 1 sensor

Bathroom test

First test:

With the sensor connected:

Heat valve gives with HCL and checking the knob lower temperature, however the radiators keeps warming up and the measurement of the sensor keeps 20 degrees (and higher).

With the sensor connected to one (1) of the FGT and the other FGT without a censor, seems to have the same issue.

In this case the sensor is used as the main temperature sensor

 

Second test:

With the sensor connected:

On both valves, in the HCL, put the operation mode to OFF (in stead of heating).

Both valves go to color withe (within HCL and checking the knob)

However the radiators keeps warming up and the measurement of the sensor keeps 20 degrees (and higher).

 

Third test:

With the sensor NOT connected:

both valves seem to close correctly and temperature is dropping.

 

This was only a first test and if i get some time, I'll repeat my tests in both rooms.

If better/other testing is required, please let me know.

While testing this, a (maybe stupid) question i was asking myself; should the option ' The main thermostat' set to the valve or to the setpoint?

The other option operating mode seems silly to me ;)

 

Hope this helps .

 

 

 

Edited by Hansie
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Also I noticed that the remote sensor is almost completely airtight. There are no breather holes for temperature measuring. So compared to other sensors I have in the same room the trv sensor is measuring rising of temperature much slower than the other sensors. That can also explain temperature overshoot.

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37 minutes ago, rdfeij said:

Also I noticed that the remote sensor is almost completely airtight. There are no breather holes for temperature measuring. So compared to other sensors I have in the same room the trv sensor is measuring rising of temperature much slower than the other sensors. That can also explain temperature overshoot.

 

I am surprised, in a very positive way, about all you clever guys adding stuff to this topic!

 

Keep those thoughts coming, I love this discussion!

 

The BLE sensor reports every 10 minutes, the FGT reports when there is a +/- 0.5 difference between the BLE report and the last FGT report. Probably 4.3 adds some reporting after several hours, the older version did not do that so if you had a constant room temperature, you might not have any FGT report for several hours. If the FGT does not report, it means room temp measured by the sensor deviates by less than +/- 0.5°C.

 

When you look at the data from the FGT sensor, you may think it is slow, but actually this is misleading.

 

In my personal opinion the thermal mass of this sensor is not an issue. I say this because I have a fairly elaborate test setup. I use a DS18B20 next to the sensor. That DS18B20 reports every 2 minutes. The FGT reports are fewer, but very accurate.

 

I am not allowed to talk about this in public, but you might be wrong to think that the BLE sensor directly controls the valve...  When we talk about "overshoot" we would have to define a bit what that means. If your rooms keeps heating for several hours, and exceeds set temp by several degrees, that is not due to the reporting of the BLE sensor. It is a firmware bug and Fibaro told me they understand what went wrong and they are working on a fix.

 

Does this help?

Edited by petergebruers
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My Heat Controller crashed again today (Applications Status 1 child device set to value 202  and then unit stops responding). Once again, it was when the boiler was not running and so the water supply to the valve was cold.

 

I installed a Eurotronic Spirit valve this evening and it just worked. Also got it working with an external ZWave temperature sensor. The only "gotcha" was the the unit keeps reporting its internal temperature sensor rather than the temperatures it receives from the external sensor, but testing by setting a higher setpoint (22) on the unit than it reports locally (19) opens the valve (which you can see as the % opening of the valve is displayed as a child device).  Then heating up the external sensor till it gets to e.g. 25 by breathing on it, the valve closed. Straight away. I have high hopes for this unit - let's see how it performs over the next few days/weeks. Sadly not a rechargeable device nor a nice neat, low-power external sensor, but at least it looks as though it might work!

 

Not meaning this as anything other suggestions to Fibaro: Please make available the % open of the valve and both the internal and external temperatures as child devices? It makes diagnosis of any issues so much easier! Being able to see the open/close of the valve being reported also adds a lot of comfort that it's actually working.

 

Come on Fibaro - your device has so much promise - please get it working as well as it says it should on the box?!

 

Cheers,

 

Jon.

 

Edited by Jon798
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