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HomeSystem.sk
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Hey, 

 

I would like to report and as well ask you guys to test it. I know it is not heating season but still...

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So the problem I found on heating panel. Basically heating panel works now very fast, I see nice improvement there.

But if I want to use eather room thermostat or radiator valve to change the heating temperature, the heating panel ignore that and keeps showing the schedule mode and schedule temperature. In my opinion after the temperature change on the room thermostat (secure srt321) it should change to the manual mode for 2 hours, that is how it worked, right?

 

Could you guys test it for me? And Fibaro, could you have a look at it. I know it is not urgent now, when we have 30 degrees outside, but again, winter will be here in no time and this will be huge issue if the heating starts

 

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Hi @HomeSystem.sk,

 

I will be setting up some Heating panel in my place, so i can test few thinks.

 

2 minutes ago, HomeSystem.sk said:

In my opinion after the temperature change on the room thermostat (secure srt321) it should change to the manual mode for 2 hours, that is how it worked, right?

It should only start 2 hours timer, in which time Thermostat will heat to your desired temperature, and not changing heating panel to manual mode. That is how i understand it.

 

I found a problem, that i cannot control heating panel through my virtual thermostat (VD), through API.  I will be tweaking with it next week (vacation finally).

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  • Do you thing heating panel should stay at the schedule mode if the thermostat is in manual mode for 2 hours?

    I know this is special issue, but we can not use association with the thermostat (it supports only single chanel and the heating valves are connected by double relays). So without association to relay, if the thermostat changes the temperature, basically nothing happens, the heating continues with schedule and heating remains ON. That is the biggest concern here. 

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    Slightly unrelated question. How does heat panel works with multiple valves, temperature sensors and Fibaro Switch 2 (connected to boiler)?

     

    I assume, I can set temperature sensor for each room, link radiator valves to particual temperature sensors, and it temp fails down in a single room, all valves are closed expcept in this room, which is opened, and boiler is switched on?

     

    This would be expected behaivour, but does it work like this?

     

    Edited by rado
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    49 minutes ago, rado said:

    Slightly unrelated question.

    Indeed, it would have been better to start a new topic.

     

    50 minutes ago, rado said:

    I assume, I can set temperature sensor for each room, link radiator valves to particual temperature sensors, and it temp fails down in a single room, all valves are closed expcept in this room, which is opened, and boiler is switched on?

     

    Nope.

     

    I understand you are new to the Heating Panel and maybe heating systems in general.

     

    I've been around here for a while and I think "temperature control" is a tough subject. Much tougher to grasp and understand than electricity. It is more difficult to measure and diagnose stuff...

     

    I do not want to underestimate you... I just want to start at the basics to make sure everyone is at the same level of understanding by the end of this post.

     

    This is copy/paste with some rework from my previous posts on this forum... I'll keep repeating and improving the explanation until everyone understands it... To my knowledge, no one on this forum has attempted to explain heating systems... until now. So please bear with me... I am not a heating specialist, but an engineer and passionate about HA so boiler control and temperature is part of my hobby. In this you will find at least partial answers to  your questions. I could have just answered those questions, but I prefer to give this complete post, because there is a certain structure to it...

     

    Let's get some things straight.

     

    • The FGT-001 is a THERMOSTAT. Popp, Danfoss Living Connect (aka LC-12 and LC-13), Eurotronic TRVS, they are all THERMOSTATS. Technically, they are not "valves", they are "thermostatic heads" attached to a valve. It is customary to refer to the assembly (head + valve) as a "Thermostatic Radiator Valve" or TRV.
    • I will use TRV if I refer to some sort of thermostat to control water flow. I will use FGT or FGT-001 when I talk about the "Fibaro Heat Controller". I will NEVER refer to the FGT as the "HC" because that abbreviation is used quite a lot on this forum to reference the "Fibaro Home Center". If I accidentally use HC in a topic about heating, I mean "Home Center". I'll try to avoid that...
    • They do NOT use your controller, to regulate temperature. They do not use any sensor measurement of your Z-Wave system. They contain their own sensor (or sensors!) and the FGT has an optional external probe. That probe is not Z-Wave, it is Bluetooth Low Energy and it is specific to the FGT-001. But since the probe measurements are transferred to your controller, you will get (accurate) temperatures from the FGT. An FGT-001 without such a probe does not report measured temperature and this is by design. The Danfoss LC-12 and LC-13 do not report temperatures either. Popp does report, because it uses a modified firmware version on Danfoss hardware. But the sensor values are inaccurate because the TRV is not in the right spot to measure room temperature. They can be used for reference.
    • You tell the TRV to go to some set-point, for instance, 22 °C and it does that for you! It does not need a controller or a temperature reference, nor does it need a room thermostat and you also do not have to buy the external probe... It is an autonomous system. It uses hot water and a battery to control room temperature. You do not have to use the "heating panel" and you do not have to write any Lua code. If you take it out of its box, mount it on a TRV, it starts controlling temperature, even when it is not included on your Z-Wave network.
    • The FGT-001 can either use its internal sensor or the special extra bluetooth low energy "button" external probe. The extra sensor can be in a more optimal place: the right height, no direct sunlight, nearer to the spot where you want to control temperature. With this probe, the FGT starts reporting temperature too. It reports to the TRV every 10 minutes. To conserve power and reduce network traffic, the FGT only sends temperature to the controller about every 2-3 hours when the temperature readings differ by 0.5-1 degree from the last report.
    • You can turn the KNOB (or push buttons) to change the set point. No magic involved. For instance, on the FGT-001, turn the ring until it displays "cyan" and it will regulate the valve, until the temperature averages 18 °C. It does not need the extra sensor, because there is one (actually two) and the device itself has an algorithm to go to the set temperature. It also does not really need a controller, all magic is performed by the micro-controller in the TRV.
    • Your TRV does not need a connection to a controller to do its job. You can install a TRV, set the thing to 24 °C if you like that, and it will start to open and close the valve. So you can check the performance of your TRV by leaving it excluded, so you can be sure it is not influenced by code or "something on your controller". This way you can be sure it is not a communication problem, or a script changing the set-point. Of course, this degrades it to "a mechanical thermostatic head" - but we managed to live with that kind of control, did we not?
    • You get more interesting possibilities, with a Z-Wave controller. You can send temperature settings to the controller via your app, or using the browser interface. Like: "go to 23 °C for 4 hours". Because FGT-001 is a FLiRS (frequently listening routing slave) device, roughly one second after you change the temperature, it will take into account your new target value! So there is no "wake up" interval (and delay) like ordinary battery operated device. Older TRVs are not FLIRS so they kind of "request settings at regular intervals" - otherwise know as "wake up interval". To my best knowledge, the only other FLiRS device on the market is the "Spirit Z-Wave Plus". Danfoss has announced the LC14, it should be FLiRS based but I don't think you can buy one yet.
    • Some part of slowness of the "older TRVs" comes from the wake up interval. The FGT-001 has eliminated that. It will respond to commands "almost instantly". Older TRVs ask the controller at regular intervals "what is my set-point" (target temperature). It is recommended to set wake up > 300 and < 900 and set each older TRV wake up with 10 seconds difference to avoid collisions. FLiRS devices  do not have such a setting because they do not need one (they are nearly instant).
    • So, you have your TRV connected (included, added) to a Z-Wave controller? Then from now on you have a "remote control" for your thermostat. It still does not need your controller or a temperature sensor to control the temperature. Sometimes, it is more convenient to use your phone or a tablet. But it's not real automation (yet). Communication is bidirectional: the controller can set the TRVs set-point and the TRV will report the set-point if someone turns the knob. If you change the setting on the TRV, it sends that information to the controller, so you can immediately see in your app or on your browser... set-point has changed. You'll notice a timer too, this is something interesting to talk about but not right now. Just keep in mind changing the setting on the TRV acts as "an override with a timer" (it requires more explanation, I know...). The FGT-001 also reports temperature if it has an external sensor. It DOES NOT report sensor data without external sensor. To me, this makes totally sense, because the sensor is not in a good spot to measure room temperature. I have dedicated a separate topic to this. Popp is a modified Danfoss TRV. It reports temperature, but depending on your house and position of the TRV, its temperature reporting will not match the temperature at a key point in your room... If you want to know more, please read my other topic... 

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    • The next step would be to use "the heating panel". The heating panel is nothing but a scheduler. It contains time/temperature settings (pairs). And all it does is send the schedule to the TRV. Again, the FGT or Danfoss is fully autonomous after it receives the schedule. Older thermostats get only a set-point change. The FGT-001 gets a complete schedule. The effect is largely the same. You can override the schedule by turning the knob, or by using the app. You get manual override and holiday mode as a bonus. You need to understand the concept of zones and rooms and maybe take into account that one FGT remote sensor can send temperature to three FGT-001 heads. It might be a little bit more complex than I suggest... one thing that trips people is how "time" plays a role in overriding the schedule.
    • If this still isn't enough control, you can use Lua to send a set-point to the TRV. Even in this case, you still do not need an extra temperature measurement... The FGT is FLiRS and responds almost instantly to your commands. The older valves get a setting at the next wake-up (typically set to anything between 5 an 30 minutes). Of course, you can use some sensor in the room to estimate the performance of the TRV and nudge the set-point up and down, to compensate for the fact the TRV is not in a good position to measure room temperature. I do not present scripts to do this... You can use Lua with or without the heating panel,. If you want to make your own scheduler, you can do that, no need to configure the heating panel.
    • The setting "The main thermostat:" on the  "room settings tab" can be used by Lua scenes, but I it is not used in any other way.
    • The setting "The main temperature sensor:" on the  "room settings tab" selects the sensor for the temperature gauge in the top left corner of a room (app + browser) for display purposes. It does not in influence temperature control, unless you use or write Lua scene(s).
    • All the TRV needs is... a steady source of hot water and battery. And this brings us to the issue of room thermostat and boiler control. The boiler should take care of the hot water problem. It has a boiler thermostat, and possibly some settings and maybe an external probe. You see, I do not mention a "room thermostat" when I talk about boiler control, this is intentional. I have discussed this in the past and will no longer do so.
    • For sake of completeness... other TRV systems exist. If you are interested in a mains operated, completely silent actuator (not a thermostat!) look up "thermoelectric actuator". notice: "actuator" is not "thermostat"... You need a thermostat to control that kind of actuator. It is something to keep in mind: all Z-Wave TRVs make some noise!
    • There is one rather peculiar device on the market, which causes a lot of confusion: "Danfoss RS 014G0160 Thermostat". On a HC 4.160 you can use this as a kind of remote control. It does not act as a real thermostat, because the device does not control any output (on a home center). You can use Lua to intercept "value" and "timestamp" as with any other thermostat.
    • Also for sake of completeness...You can turn a sensor and a switch (relay) into a basic thermostat using "linked device". It only works with a relay, not a thermostat. I am not a big fan of this setup, if communication fails and the relay gets stuck "open" or "close" your room might get very hot or cold. You can by thermostats with a relay instead.
    • FGT-001 fimwares up to 4.4 have issues. Version 4.4 has been released, but it is soon to evaluate the improvements. Keep an eye on the specific FGT-001 forum.

    To do what you ask... Have a look at:

     

     

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    Great explanation Peter, thank  you very much!

     

    As for TRVs, let's say Fibaro Heat Scheduler will be sending heating schedule to two TRVs, Living Room TRV and Bathroom TRV.

    Now, can I assume TRV is "closed" when requested temperature is same as or above actual one, ie. there is no water flow? But this behaviour is "up to TRV", there is no "close valve command", right, Fibaro can send? And Fibaro also cannot sent current temperature to TRV, as it has its own measurements (remote unit, like with FGT-001 or internal one, like Danfoss).

     

    Now, if I want to heat the bathroom a bit more, boiler will get switched on  (how to do this? later on..), but TRV in the Living room will remain closed, as the room would be overheated. RIght?

     

    As for switching the boiler, simple on/off swich like Fibaro SIngle Switch 2 (FGS-213) can be used. But how does this work with Heating panel? Do I set it as "boiler control" somewhere and Fibaro knows that when TRV is opened, water should flow, so boiler should also be on? How do you connect these two?

     

    Of course you can do this with Lua, but is there any simpler way?

    Edited by rado
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    4 hours ago, rado said:

    Great explanation Peter, thank  you very much!

    I am glad you like it! You can show your appreciation, by clicking the "like" or "thanks" button on my post.

     

    4 hours ago, rado said:

    Now, can I assume TRV is "closed" when requested temperature is same as or above actual one, ie. there is no water flow?

    The algorithm im much more complicated than that. A simple on/off control scheme on radiators (with lots of water in them) does not work well. All electronic Z-Wave TRVs iwe intelligent or modified PI(D) control algorithm.

     

    You ask 21 °C ->send set point 21 to FGT-001 -> TRV spins motor and opens and closes at will, until the HEAD sensor matches the 21 °C

    If you have an external sensor, It uses that one to display temperature and change the algorithm so it appears as if it now uses that one. Dpending on your house and where it is, that can be + or - 3 °C

     

    A full head movement makes a lot of noise.

     

    4 hours ago, rado said:

    But this behaviour is "up to TRV", there is no "close valve command", right, Fibaro can send?

    Besides this AUTO (normal) mode it can be forced open or close:

     

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    4 hours ago, rado said:

    And Fibaro also cannot sent current temperature to TRV, as it has its own measurements (remote unit, like with FGT-001 or internal one, like Danfoss).

    The FGT-001 either measures HEAD temperature or EXTERNAL if you buy the dedicated probe. It is a BLE module, it is not Z-Wave and desigend for this.

    The FGT only reports EXTERNAL temp. If you don't buy one, it reports "--"

     

    The FGT-001does not take measurements from any source. Not a Z-Wave device. Also no Lua command.

     

    4 hours ago, rado said:

    Now, if I want to heat the bathroom a bit more, boiler will get switched on  (how to do this? later on..), but TRV in the Living room will remain closed, as the room would be overheated. RIght?

     

    There are 2 ways to do boiler control. I use an "intelligent" boiler and I have no room thermostat, no relay and consequently no scripts. It works in my house, in my specific situation. Heating systems vary widely, so it is hard to explain in a few minutes what/where/why.

     

    The other way to control your boiler, with a relay, is the script from Dave Harrison, the one I mentioned before:

     

    Someone recently asked: "So, is there a z-wave thermostat that will keep the boiler on or switch it on if one (or more) TGF's want more heat?"

     

    The answer is: NO.

     

    A copy of my answer edited edit for clarity:

     

    Actually that does not exist. It has been discussed a few times. What other users want: a device which detects if one of your TRVs (like FGT or Danfoss) is open then turn on the boiler.

     

    As a workaround, use the scripts posted on this forum

     

    But there are no boiler or room thermostats that communicate directly with TRVs.

     

    I have debated this, and I also have explained why I do not have scripts. I do not have a room themostat either.

     

    You may think I am an unpleasant person, but I do not wish to debate this anymore. I did that several times in the past. I can point you to older posts if you cannot find them. I do not want to discuss this anymore, because people always kind of respond "what you say cannot work". Which is an odd thing to say, because it is my setup since 2003. It does not work for everyone, in all situations. Heating systems are varied, complex and harder to understand and diagnose than electrical systems...

     

    There are so many variables. For instance, your boiler might support a http interface... It might have 100 parameters (mine is old and it probably has about 20 *relevant* settings).

     

    There are more than a few heating experts and motivated script writers on this forum, so you'll find an answer... But not a "thermostat" that gets its info from your TRVs, such a device does not exist.

     

    4 hours ago, rado said:

    Of course you can do this with Lua, but is there any simpler way?

     

    I'd say no, though you might be able to use "graphic scenes". But I'd recommend Lua anyway.

     

    There are non-Z-Wave solutions like Evohome (app + API + thermostats + boiler control). They can be interfaced. AFAIK it is cloud though and the interface was recently broken and fixed by the volunteers on this forum:

     

     

     

    Edited by petergebruers
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    You are right heating is a very complex matter. 

     

    My Viessmann boiler (gas) on the other hand is quite simple :)It has just on/off PINs for thermostat.

     

    So, after reading carefully what you wrote, and examining Dave Harisson's script, I think it's better for me to use something like Honeywell EvoHome or Netatmo Thermostast. They both have better (=more advanced) heating algorithms, adjustments and predictions, they also take external temperature into account (equitherm regulation), and are simply more advanced then what I could achieve with my own or Dave's LUA script.

    Edited by rado
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    24 minutes ago, rado said:

    My Viessmann boiler (gas) on the other hand is quite simple :)It has just on/off PINs for thermostat.

    Those might be digital pins. My Viessman is from +/- 2003. My "Vitotrol 300" from that era looka like a room thermostat, but it is absolutely not! It is a digital remote control. My system also has an external probe.

     

    27 minutes ago, rado said:

    So, after reading carefully what you wrote, and examining Dave Harisson's script, I think it's better for me to use something like Honeywell EvoHome or Netatmo Thermostast. They both have better (=more advanced) heating algorithms, adjustments and predictions, they also take external temperature into account (equitherm regulation), and are simply more advanced then what I could achieve with my own or Dave's LUA script.

    I have no strong opinion on that. I do agree it's better than trying to set TRVs to "on" and "off" (bang-bang or hysteretic control). And even doing your own PID won't make you happy (you cannot set a % opening on the FGT).

     

    A friend of mine owns an evotherm system and he has communication issues with 1 or 2 TRVs. He probably has to add additional communication points, because it's not mesh routed.

     

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    Hi @HomeSystem.sk

     

    On 8/24/2018 at 10:43 AM, HomeSystem.sk said:

    But if I want to use eather room thermostat or radiator valve to change the heating temperature, the heating panel ignore that and keeps showing the schedule mode and schedule temperature. In my opinion after the temperature change on the room thermostat (secure srt321) it should change to the manual mode for 2 hours, that is how it worked, right?

     

    Please take a look at this scene:

     

     

    I believe that it will do what you're looking for and override the heating panel for the room in which the thermostat is located whenever the thermostat is changed.  The override time can be set to a fixed period (such as the 2 hours that you mention) or up until the next scheduled change time by changing a variable within the scene.  Unfortunately it can't pick up a time from the thermostat.

     

    On 8/26/2018 at 3:49 PM, rado said:

    I think it's better for me to use something like Honeywell EvoHome or Netatmo Thermostast. They both have better (=more advanced) heating algorithms, adjustments and predictions, they also take external temperature into account (equitherm regulation), and are simply more advanced then what I could achieve with my own or Dave's LUA script.

     

    I agree.  The script is far from perfect and neither are the Danfoss valves that I use.  Being able to regulate the indoor temperatures and the most efficient times to turn the boiler off and on based on additional factors such as the external temperature and room characteristics would be something that would be nice to add.  However, I'm not convinced that there would be significant efficiency savings to be had.  As @petergebruers has pointed out, the boiler does quite a good job on its own of regulating the water temperature to satisfy the heating demands.  What I might possibly look at this winter is some kind of weather compensator...I suspect that when the weather outside is sunny, the room temperatures can be lowered a little, compared to when its overcast or raining, even though the outside temperature is the same.  It's probably simply related to the humidity.  Further research is needed on that one.

     

    You might also want to take a look at

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    which is a dedicated Z-Wave based Heating Controller system.

     

    @petergebruers  Thanks for the plug for the 

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     :D

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    Temat został przeniesiony z "

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    hi short question maybie connected to the same TRV (Popp).

    from time to time I get target temperature 100 times higher than the actual target .

    only on one valve and only 1 or 2 times / day

    anybody else having such issues ?

     

    e.g.

    current temperature 20 degrees

    target temperature 1500.0 instead of 15.0

     

     

     

    Edited by vifefref45
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