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Replacing devices


knuth
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I am about to replace 13 Z-TRM2fx thermostats (220 V AC powered) with updated hardware. The old units are all wall mounted, configured, and reachable from my HC2. Before I start, I need to be sure to have the right procedure. Here is what I intend to do:

  1. Delete all the old units, one by one, using HC2 Devices - Delete devices (and appropriate clicks on the thermostat panel)
  2. Power up the new units, one by one,  using a temporary 220 V connection near my HC2. Include each unit using Devices - Add device (with NWI checked)
  3. Move each new unit to its intended location. Physically replace the old unit and reconnect power and sensor(s) to the new unit. 
  4. Re-mesh network after all new units are installed. Check that all units are reachable from the HC2.
  5. Rename main and slave devices, and assign to rooms.

 

Anything else? Assuming that the delete procedure completes successfully, will all the old units be completely removed, or do I need to "force remove" them as well? Would it be easier to use "force remove" directly in step 1? Any drawbacks?

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normally you not need use force remove, If old device still connected to z-wave network and communicate with HC2 when you start remove procedure. They are 2 method - first one by one by click X for delete device from www, second form www page for add, remove devices by set exclude time ex for 300s and click remove. after this you have 300sec for remove all devices by  tap button physically on the devices (described in thermostat manual - often 3 times include exclude button  .

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18 hours ago, knuth said:
  • Power up the new units, one by one,  using a temporary 220 V connection near my HC2. Include each unit using Devices - Add device (with NWI checked)
  • Move each new unit to its intended location. Physically replace the old unit and reconnect power and sensor(s) to the new unit. 

The whole point of NWI is you can leave the device where you are going to use it. Don't bring it closer to the HC2, that is for "non NWI" inclusion... Because you include it where it is supposed to be, it will get the correct neighbors. If NWI fails the device either does not support NWI or you do not have enough NWI-supporting nodes in your mesh.

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21 hours ago, knuth said:

Power up the new units, one by one,  using a temporary 220 V connection near my HC2. Include each unit using Devices - Add device (with NWI checked)

@petergebruers absolutely correct, If you're near to HC2, so why you need to use NWI? By definition NWI is the process in which you can include devices into the primary controller that are outside the controllers range.

Since you Re-mesh network after all new units are installed,no need to use NWI.... I think this is useless when you near HC2.

See below @AutoFrank procedure

 

Edited by cag014
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I've got no strong opion because I don''t know what kind of devices he has. If they are all new based on a recent SDK, then NWI works and will save some time. OpenZWave enables NWI by default, there are imho no disadvantages to trying NWI. BTW it is rare but it is possible to move a device out of reach, then remesh will do nothing (I know you know that, I mention this for new users)

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  • Topic Author
  • Thanks, guys, for a good discussion. This is what I find a little confusing:

    @drboss suggests using the X to delete a device. I thought that this would delete the device from the HC2, but leave the device itself configured as part of the network. When I physically remove the unit later, this will make no difference to me - but maybe make it a little harder for someone else to use the device in their network?

    My other issue is with the two check boxes "NWI" and "Device is located far from the Home Center". I can understand, I think, what the NWI does. But what is the use of the "located far from" check box? It seems reasonable to either have both checked (remote location) or both unchecked (located next to HC). If so, why have two?

     

    Finally, I am trying to conclude on the NWI/close or remote issue discussed by @petergebruers  and @cag014 . The first time I included these devices, they were installed in their intended rooms (with NWI checked). This worked OK, but there were some issues with incomplete configuration. These issues could be caused by unstable communication or, possibly, by the immature firmware of the first generation of theses devices. I just feel more comfortable including the new ones near the HC2 to be sure. In that case, NWI or not-NWI should make no difference, as the expected link will be directly to the HC2? The clue is to remesh after they are moved, to make sure that they find their proper place in the network. 

     

    This discussion illustrates a more fundamental fact: There is a lack of in-depth documentation of the Fibaro system. Several of the options, commands and buttons have only a very superficial explanation. This is the case for all the options discussed here: Delete by "X", force remove, NWI, and "located far from". The forum is a great help, but I would have expected such basics to be thoroughly documented somewhere. Is that too much to ask?

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    1 hour ago, knuth said:

    My other issue is with the two check boxes "NWI" and "Device is located far from the Home Center"

     

    Long time ago, Z-Wave only supported low power and normal power, but not NWI. The first, "low power inclusion, direct connection" means the TX range is reduced and the second, "normal power inclusion, direct connection" means in fact maximum range (because "normal power" in Z-Wave is the same as maximum power). I think the "low power" version was considered a safety feature, but I am not sure. Both do NOT use repeaters. NWI is much more recent and can use repeaters. It is "normal power, meshed inclusion" so to speak.

     

    To summarize: no checkboxes = low power, ""Device is located far from the Home Center" means normal power and NWI is meshed inclusion. I don't think there is a "low power NWI mode", in my mind that combination does not make sense ;)

     

    Relevant parts are in silabs doc INS13954... under "4.4.1 ZW_AddNodeToNetwork". It is not a public document so I'am only going to paraphrase that part 

     

    ADD_NODE_OPTION_NETWORK_WIDE - allows to add node without direct range connectivity, backwards compatible with normal inclusion, using the mesh.

    ADD_NODE_OPTION_NORMAL_POWER - "high power" is the default so it is frequently called "normal" power. For special purposes it is possible to OMIT the ADD_NODE_OPTION_NORMAL_POWER flag but is not recommended.

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    2 hours ago, knuth said:

    @drboss suggests using the X to delete a device. I thought that this would delete the device from the HC2, but leave the device itself configured as part of the network. When I physically remove the unit later, this will make no difference to me - but maybe make it a little harder for someone else to use the device in their network?

     

    The X will first try a normal delete... But also offers the "force delete" option if it is a failed node. I would avoid that if possible but selling modules that were "force deleted" cause no real issues because any controller can delete any module at any time. So the buyer cannot "add" the module and he/she may think it is faulty while it is not. Simply setting his/her controller (Domoticz, Hass, HCL, does not matter at all) to "delete" then click the module will reset it. After that, it can be added again...

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  • This is exactly the type of in-depth explanation that is missing from the documentation. Thanks, @petergebruers  - very clear and  to the point, as usual! 

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    • 1 month later...
  • Topic Author
  • My installation is now complete. I followed the 5-point plan described in my first post (using "NWI" and "located far from.."). Most of the units included without issues,. A few new devices needed device delete  and factory reset before trying a second (or third) time. In the end, all were successfully included. We then completed tasks 3 - 5 in the list (mounting them in their respective wall boxes, re-powering, and re-meshing the entire network) without further problems.

    There are a few remaining issues regarding parameterization, but those are unrelated to this thread. 

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