Jump to content

Welcome to Smart Home Forum by FIBARO

Dear Guest,

 

as you can notice parts of Smart Home Forum by FIBARO is not available for you. You have to register in order to view all content and post in our community. Don't worry! Registration is a simple free process that requires minimal information for you to sign up. Become a part of of Smart Home Forum by FIBARO by creating an account.

 

As a member you can:

  •     Start new topics and reply to others
  •     Follow topics and users to get email updates
  •     Get your own profile page and make new friends
  •     Send personal messages
  •     ... and learn a lot about our system!

 

Regards,

Smart Home Forum by FIBARO Team


  • 0

Eurotronic Spirit Z-wave thermostat- Valve opening percentage report


CoopR
 Share

Question

 

Hello everyone,

 

As many before on this forum I'm working on my heating system and want to convert my current single room heating plan into to a multi zone heating plan.

I want to integrate my boiler into my heating plan but want to create some safety interlock that I won't fire up the boiler if all the thermostats are closed.

 

I think this is a very important feature and often overlooked as the behavior of a thermostat is to close more and more when the thermostat is reaching it's set-point to prevent overshoot.

 

So therefore I need to know what to position is of the valve, based on that condition i went for the TRV's of eurotronic as it stated in the manual that it is able to report it's current valve position.

And it looked like everything would work correct with the fibaro template as I was able to set parameter 6 and enable the valve postion reporting.

 

I think everything is configured correctly but i have a bit of strange behavior now in fibaro when I enable parameter 6.

 

The setpoint value is getting overwritten with the valve position percentage:

 

Setpoint displays: new setpoint in degree Celsius

 

Please login or register to see this image.

/monthly_2020_10/Setpoint.PNG.ca6a52ca33e2e391597dbb891342b80d.PNG" />

 

After few minutes same device is overwritten and setpoint value displays Open valve percentage (unit doesn't update and stays on degree Celsius):

 

Please login or register to see this attachment.

 

Enabled parameter 6.

 

 

parameter6.PNG.a8bc63e818ea16b5a69ee71df48868a3.PNG

 

When i change setpoint and debug the info.

I noticed the following behavior:

 

Setpoint change -> Setpoint value displays setpoint -> after few minutes Setpoint value displays: valve position -> Setpoint value displays setpoint value again.

 

luachangeSP.PNG.65a903c7a84495085b49d2d24da6bc63.PNGluavalveposSP.PNG.fe8e9bd22a53e9db04fee09cfb752d95.PNG

 

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong values but here is the list of the available values:

I wasn't able to locate the opening valve percentage value in this list to make a virtual device as work around..

 

Getsetpointinfo.PNG.b338526ad565de807cd880fc37c88d45.PNG

 

Does someone have a solution for my problem?

I would like to receive the actual setpoint and the open valve percentage on a different value/device.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by CoopR
adding tags
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Recommended Posts

  • 0
  • Inquirer
  • Anyone an idea how to solve this?

    Or should i move this topic to "Scenes and Interface"?

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    If setpoint value is being overwritten with the valve position percentage that means that device report value position not only by parameter 6 value but with Thermostat Setpoint Report frame (this is the only one which will affect targetLevel and value property).
    There will be nothing we can do about it if device is working this way ?

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    Hi CoopR,

     

    I have 4x Eurotronic Spirit z-wave plus. I tried to get the information you wanted but wasn't successful. Also, after adding parameter 6 it made no difference. What I do is set the "mode" to on when I turn the heat on and activate the thermostat which is replaced by a relay (id 159 in the code). When the heat is on, I also set a variable to on for that room. When the heat is off, I set the variable to off. I have a separate script to turn the heat off when all the variables are off. Maybe this is helpful for you. I you have any question, just let me know.

     

     

    FYI; I have "stadsverwarming" therefore it was easy to replace the thermostat with a relay. I first measured the signal with a multimeter.

     

    PS: you can combine the debug messages. For example: fibaro:debug("Thermostat SP: "..D_setpoint) wil give you as result: Thermostat SP: 15 Or even fibaro:debug("Thermostat SP: "..D_setpoint.."°C") -> Thermostat SP: 15°C

     

    Now I'm not using the code anymore, because I migrated much of my automations to Home Assistant / Nodered (My HC2 is directly connected to Home Assistant) I can use the fibaro app for the heating, the Spirit buttons, Google Assistant and a selfmade dashboard in home assistant, very convenient ;) Also everything turns off automatic when we leave home, at midnight or after a certain time, for example max 2 hours for the batroom.

     

    Heat on:

    Please login or register to see this code.

     

    Heat off:

    Please login or register to see this code.

     

    Thermostat (boiler) off:

    Please login or register to see this code.

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

    Edited by Jeroen_
    • Like 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0
  • Inquirer
  • On 12/16/2020 at 2:10 PM, m.roszak said:

    If setpoint value is being overwritten with the valve position percentage that means that device report value position not only by parameter 6 value but with Thermostat Setpoint Report frame (this is the only one which will affect targetLevel and value property).
    There will be nothing we can do about it if device is working this way ?

     

    Has this nothing to do with how the device is integrated in fibaro?

    It seems that the current device template doesn't support all of the eurotronic Spirit Z-wave plus functions

     

    These are the modes that are available for the eurotronic Spirit zwave plus according the manual their manual (

    Please login or register to see this link.

    ) :

     

    The flowing mode commands are available:

    Please login or register to see this image.

    /monthly_2020_12/afbeelding.png.aa0c0f68890da325119086ef7902a72d.png" />

     

    These are the command modes that can be send to the thermostat:

     

    afbeelding.png.b6eee4eca0427a1265e30072018a3868.png

    These are the current command modes that are available in Fibaro with current template:

     

    afbeelding.png.f4a164c0195145082dbd16f5c0d66754.png

    With the current fibaro template it is not possible to configure the Enery Heat setpoint in the parameters:

     

    afbeelding.png.e13cec12c5a60fffcfdfda36d6b3c3b5.png

    You can however configure parameter 6 with the current template in fibaro:

    afbeelding.png.f13d7eff0472169991a1e65332983915.png

     

    afbeelding.png.f74d69932f102085b13b1a1d9227f743.png

     

    It can be that they use the same reportback value as "current setpoint", but is there no message id given during the reporting of the current valve position?

    As the percentage value only displays for a short period and then it shows the current setpoint again.

     

    So maybe something goes wrong during decompose of the report back value?

    Maybe there is a message id which indicates that the current value received on setpoint value is a different value and has to be stored somewhere else?

     

     

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    Energy save heat setpoint should be configurable using com.fibro.setPoint device (Thermostat Setpoint) in your interface.
    Just select Energy Save Heat and then change temperature.

    Adjusting all setpoint are managed via this device.
    Manufacturer Specific mode is probably not reported as supported if it is not available in select - maybe we need to add it manually to the template.
    Please upload here downloaded template of the device from your system and I will take a look.

     

    On 12/29/2020 at 11:20 AM, CoopR said:

    It can be that they use the same reportback value as "current setpoint", but is there no message id given during the reporting of the current valve position?

    As the percentage value only displays for a short period and then it shows the current setpoint again.

     

    So maybe something goes wrong during decompose of the report back value?

    Maybe there is a message id which indicates that the current value received on setpoint value is a different value and has to be stored somewhere else?


    Value visible in interface on com.fibaro.setPoint device is last reported setpoint value (only from CC Setpoint, last reported value).
    With this value also setpoint type is being changed in the "select" field to corresponding setpoint type.

    Our engine won't map configuration value or multilevel Switch value to this field without special mapping which need to be implemented first.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0
  • Inquirer
  • On 1/4/2021 at 3:27 PM, m.roszak said:

    Energy save heat setpoint should be configurable using com.fibro.setPoint device (Thermostat Setpoint) in your interface.
    Just select Energy Save Heat and then change temperature.

    Adjusting all setpoint are managed via this device.
    Manufacturer Specific mode is probably not reported as supported if it is not available in select - maybe we need to add it manually to the template.
    Please upload here downloaded template of the device from your system and I will take a look.

     


    Value visible in interface on com.fibaro.setPoint device is last reported setpoint value (only from CC Setpoint, last reported value).
    With this value also setpoint type is being changed in the "select" field to corresponding setpoint type.

    Our engine won't map configuration value or multilevel Switch value to this field without special mapping which need to be implemented first.

     

    Thank you for your reply.

     

    I tried to modify the Energy Saving heat setpoint but I can't seem to get it to work.

    The "com.fibaro.setPoint" only has one selectable mode: "Heating"

     

    Please login or register to see this image.

    /monthly_2021_01/afbeelding.png.310bc9715cd3e4a0196b07a4c09830bb.png" />

     

    the "com.fibaro.operatingMode" has more selectable modes "Off", "Heat", "Energy Save Heat" and "MAX":

     

    afbeelding.png.e8c9cd244e49309a69d87b8745d8ff50.png

     

    If I set "com.fibaro.operatingMode" to "Energy Save Heat" and I modify "com.fibaro.setPoint" to a different temperature. Then I switch back to "Heat" and set a different temperature. If I then again go back to "Energy Save Heat" the setpoint is not modified to the stored value.

     

    Also the readback of current thermostat value is not correct, when the local display of the thermostat displays the string "ON" for "com.fibaro.operatingMode := MAX" or "OFF" for "com.fibaro.operatingMode := OFF" the displayed value is the old setpoint:

     

    afbeelding.png.8266f248ccb2b82de20559c790844906.png

     

    afbeelding.png.df57d920cd1048e63c40df352c8b6bfb.png

     

    I think there also is a wrong status description for the mode "Energy Save Heat"

     

    afbeelding.png.789870c052ac7a2b72675aab485e2a95.png

     

    I also added the template from my fibaro system as you requested see the file: "id-0148-0003-0001-00-10-Eurotronics-.zip".

     

    Thanks already for helping out!

     

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    Mode device and setpoint device are separate beings from Z-Wave Protocol point of view.
    Changing mode won't affect setpoint device.

    Look at this like setpoint is only to set values for different modes, changing the mode will actually make any change in device behavior (or if you are changing setpoint of currently active mode).

    Most of available modes in protocol must have corresponding setpoints available - with few exceptions like "OFF", "RESUME", "FAN" or "AUTO" which for example uses two setpoins at once (heating and cooling).
    If you would like to learn some more about Thermostat Setpoint, Thermostat Mode, Thermostat Fan Mode, Thermostat Fan State, Thermostat Operating State command classes -> 

    Please login or register to see this link.



    In this document you will find everything you need.
    Unfortunately Z-Wave representation of "HVAC" devices is not as easy as it seems.  

    I have looked at the template, device reports support for only one setpoint -> heating.
    There won't be possible to change other setpoints if device do not report those as supported.

    According to Z-Wave Specification Mode "Energy Heat" (0x0B) requires own setpoint but device does not report it as supported. 

    Additionally, "MAX" mode is Manufacturer Specific (translation in this case is wrong) - you should be able to use it.
    To control valve directly change the mode to MAX and use multilevelSwitch device to control it (according to device manual). 


    EDIT
    Sorry, my bad. It reports support for Mode "Full Power" (0x0F) which also needs its own setpoint according to specification.
    Manufacturer Specific mode has identifier 0x1F which is not reported as supported by your device.

    As for status for "Energy Save Heat" - this is correct according to Z-Wave, device reports this state and we just show it.
    In case of "operating state" thermostats won't report supported ones, just report current state by "Thermostat Operating State Command Class"
    Looks like that in "Energy Save Heat" thermostat mode device reports "3rd State Aux Heat" as its current state.

    Just for your information, available thermostat states:

    Please login or register to see this image.

    /monthly_2021_01/image.png.91263e859859df8d89100e37af5f2142.png" /> 

    As you can see those are not matching "modes" 1:1 regarding the names.

    Regards,
    Michał 

    PS
    If you are able to open ports to external IP address I can alter the template to force support of "Energy Save Heat" setpoint and Manufacturer Specifc mode.
    It will allow you to test if this even works.
    You can pm me anytime ;)

    • Like 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0
  • Inquirer
  • On 1/8/2021 at 11:43 AM, m.roszak said:

    Mode device and setpoint device are separate beings from Z-Wave Protocol point of view.
    Changing mode won't affect setpoint device.

    Look at this like setpoint is only to set values for different modes, changing the mode will actually make any change in device behavior (or if you are changing setpoint of currently active mode).

    Most of available modes in protocol must have corresponding setpoints available - with few exceptions like "OFF", "RESUME", "FAN" or "AUTO" which for example uses two setpoins at once (heating and cooling).
    If you would like to learn some more about Thermostat Setpoint, Thermostat Mode, Thermostat Fan Mode, Thermostat Fan State, Thermostat Operating State command classes -> 

    Please login or register to see this link.



    In this document you will find everything you need.
    Unfortunately Z-Wave representation of "HVAC" devices is not as easy as it seems.  

    I have looked at the template, device reports support for only one setpoint -> heating.
    There won't be possible to change other setpoints if device do not report those as supported.

    According to Z-Wave Specification Mode "Energy Heat" (0x0B) requires own setpoint but device does not report it as supported. 

    Additionally, "MAX" mode is Manufacturer Specific (translation in this case is wrong) - you should be able to use it.
    To control valve directly change the mode to MAX and use multilevelSwitch device to control it (according to device manual). 


    EDIT
    Sorry, my bad. It reports support for Mode "Full Power" (0x0F) which also needs its own setpoint according to specification.
    Manufacturer Specific mode has identifier 0x1F which is not reported as supported by your device.

    As for status for "Energy Save Heat" - this is correct according to Z-Wave, device reports this state and we just show it.
    In case of "operating state" thermostats won't report supported ones, just report current state by "Thermostat Operating State Command Class"
    Looks like that in "Energy Save Heat" thermostat mode device reports "3rd State Aux Heat" as its current state.

    Just for your information, available thermostat states:

    Please login or register to see this link.

     

    As you can see those are not matching "modes" 1:1 regarding the names.

    Regards,
    Michał 

    PS
    If you are able to open ports to external IP address I can alter the template to force support of "Energy Save Heat" setpoint and Manufacturer Specifc mode.
    It will allow you to test if this even works.
    You can pm me anytime ;)

     

    Thank you for your explanation, I wasn't aware that there are rules defined in the Zwave protocol for various devices.

    So it seems that the eurotronic spirit doesn't fully comply to these rules.

     

    So as I understand correctly the "Engery Save Heat" is not a defined standard in the z-wave protocol, but Eurotronic used the 3rd Stage Aux Heat which is defined in the z-wave protocol for this mode.

    As the fibaro heat device  in my HC2 complies with the zwave standard the correct text "3rd Stage Aux Heat" is displayed.

     

    I have a set of these smart thermostats now as I test but I think these are not a safe option for people that have their own heating boiler in their house.

    You at least need to know the actual valve open or close state of the smart thermostats, to prevent that the boiler is pumping against a closed circuit.

     

    Activating the boiler against a closed circuit will increase the pressure in the pipes and potential damage the equipment / house (as extra safety measure, i have a mechanical pressure bypass as backup, but you don't want to rely on this equipment).

     

    Another aspect of these thermostats is that their behavior is like a PID controller, as they reach there setpoint the valve starts to close and it will try to find a valve position to keep the room temperature on the correct setpoint. This is great if your house is connected to a external central heating system as these systems react correctly to pressure increases and drops. But closing of the thermostat valve means that the flow will be decreased in the heating system and the pressure will rise in the heating pipes, as most of the boilers will just have a on/off heating request. Their is some pressure regulation in boilers but the behavior of the smart thermostats is unpredictable , a sudden close or a big correction of the thermostats valve would give the boiler to less time to react and a pressure spike could damage the system.

     

    So you need to know the valve position to detect a sudden change, and immediately remove the heating request towards the boiler.

    Or I you should be able to configure the smart Themostat as an Open/Close valve instead of the built in Temperature control, so you have the full control over the valve.

    You could make an On / Off regulation with a hysteresis to regulate the room temperature and correctly set or reset the heating request towards the boiler.

     

    I had high hopes with these zwave smart thermostats, but I think I cant realize my idea.

     

    My idea was to use the Fibaro heating panel to schedule the heating of rooms.

    Use the eurotronic thermostat display to read out the current setpoint and buttons to manually overwrite the Fibaro Heating panel setpoint for 2 hours to temporary heat a room (had this working with the scenes)

    Read out valve position to set or reset a heating request to my boiler (realized with a fibaro relay)

     

    Maybe if i indeed could use the vendor specific mode and directly control the valve position, i could make the thermostat behave as an open close valve?

    But would i still be able to send a setpoint to fibaro with the local buttons on the thermostat to temporary bypass the fibaro heating panel?

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0
    21 minutes ago, CoopR said:

    So as I understand correctly the "Engery Save Heat" is not a defined standard in the z-wave protocol, but Eurotronic used the 3rd Stage Aux Heat which is defined in the z-wave protocol for this mode.

    As the fibaro heat device  in my HC2 complies with the zwave standard the correct text "3rd Stage Aux Heat" is displayed.


    It is defined and possible to use but device won't report it as supported thermostat mode.
    3rd Stage Aux Heat is thermostat state (not mode) and this is being reported via different command class.
     

     

    21 minutes ago, CoopR said:

    Maybe if i indeed could use the vendor specific mode and directly control the valve position, i could make the thermostat behave as an open close valve?

    But would i still be able to send a setpoint to fibaro with the local buttons on the thermostat to temporary bypass the fibaro heating panel?


    This should be possible if device works as described by the manual -> needs adding "Manufacturer Specifc Mode" to template manually as device won't report it as supported like "Energy Save Heat" mode.
    In case of controlling thermostat valve directly using a heating panel with it seems strange.
    Setting setpoint won't affect thermostat if it is in "Manufacturer Specific" mode, it only will change "Heating Thermostat Setpoint" value but won't do any effect if device won't be in "heating" mode. 

    As for sending setpoint to Fibaro using buttons on the device, this will work if device will be able to send those in "manufacturer specific" mode but I do not know if module will allow it.

    As I said before I can try to tweak template directly on your system and you can try it out - just let me know if you want to experiment a little ;)

    PS 
    As for using direct control for the valve, you can create a QuickApp (thermostat) and put there whole logic for controlling the valve and using this QuickApp with the panel ;)

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0
  • Inquirer
  • 2 hours ago, m.roszak said:


    It is defined and possible to use but device won't report it as supported thermostat mode.
    3rd Stage Aux Heat is thermostat state (not mode) and this is being reported via different command class.
     

     


    This should be possible if device works as described by the manual -> needs adding "Manufacturer Specifc Mode" to template manually as device won't report it as supported like "Energy Save Heat" mode.
    In case of controlling thermostat valve directly using a heating panel with it seems strange.
    Setting setpoint won't affect thermostat if it is in "Manufacturer Specific" mode, it only will change "Heating Thermostat Setpoint" value but won't do any effect if device won't be in "heating" mode. 

    As for sending setpoint to Fibaro using buttons on the device, this will work if device will be able to send those in "manufacturer specific" mode but I do not know if module will allow it.

    As I said before I can try to tweak template directly on your system and you can try it out - just let me know if you want to experiment a little ;)

    PS 
    As for using direct control for the valve, you can create a QuickApp (thermostat) and put there whole logic for controlling the valve and using this QuickApp with the panel ;)

     

    I would indeed create a virtual thermostat that would control the valve (open or close) with the use of setpoint, pv (room temp) and a hystersis.

     

    I think my ports are open to my HC2 so if you could update the template so I can experiment, that would be great :)!

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    Hello,

     

    I am very interested in where this is heading. I have 22 Eurotronic Spirit Z-wave in my home and 16 of them I use fore zones in my floorheating. My intension is to regulate dit flow in de zone by the percentage of the valve. 

    I have de new Fibaro HC3 and not be abble yet to change the mode of Spirit z-wave in to vendor specific mode. I understand that it is possible with a QuickApp in HC3?

     

    With regards ,

     

    Rein

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    Hey, I'm also interested but there's a lot to read above (TL;DR) - is it possible to read the percentage open of the TRV?  It seems it only ever reads one or zero...even with the parameter template turned off. Thanks

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0
    On 12/16/2020 at 1:10 PM, m.roszak said:

    If setpoint value is being overwritten with the valve position percentage that means that device report value position not only by parameter 6 value but with Thermostat Setpoint Report frame (this is the only one which will affect targetLevel and value property).
    There will be nothing we can do about it if device is working this way ?

     

    OK, I have seen this happening now: the valve level is getting confused with the setpoint.

     

    Is this confirmed as a device issue rather than a Fibaro issue?  If I was to get a different Z-Wave interface, would the same issue be there?

     

    I guess for now @Jeroen_'s suggestion of just turning the the TRV's each full on/off and taking the intelligence away from them is all we have

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    This won't be an issue with Fibaro SW, as explained above.

    We will try some tweaking with the template to force support for "Manufacturer Specific" mode to try controlling the valve directly. 
    If there will be any development I will let you guys know :)

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    I have the same problem as the original poster - in my case with a Aeotec TRV (which looks like a rebadged Spirit TRV).

     

    I want to switch the boiler on/off when the TRV valve is open/closed. This required reading the TRV valve value and switching my fibaro switch on when the valve is open.

     

    However, when I enable parameter 6, I get both the valve value and the set point - and I have no way to distinguish between the two.

     

    I'd like to understand why technically Home Centre 2 cannot tell the difference between the two messages.

    Can you please explain?

     

    Cheers,

    Joe

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    Hi,
    I'm thinking of moving from another platform and about to train as an installer, so checking compatibility with my current devices in HC. I have several of these TRV's, and also am aware you don't want a boiler firing when all valves are closed

     

    I currently have some logic to create a multi zone heating system (Vera/Reactor Plugin) that looks at all the valves and if ANY are temp < setpoint* then turn on boiler. If ALL are temp >= setpoint* then turn off boiler. Can that just not be set up in a scene in HC?

     

    * I actually have the logic to turn off 1 degree below setpoint as this prevents valves being nearly closed on cold days with older radiators and never getting the room quite to temp to turn off the boiler. Works really well (on 15 TRVs) and means you don't need to mess with parameter 6 to control logic. It's possible to set an offset on the TRV to hide this 1 degree difference if cosmetically you want to look at the TRV and see exacts, but i've not bothered, and just know it will turn off just under displayed value. 

     

    My heating system is critical to home automation but I've found this way works, possible it can be done on HC? (If not then thats a deal breaker for me).

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0
  • Inquirer
  • On 2/21/2021 at 11:38 AM, Darryl said:

    Hi,
    I'm thinking of moving from another platform and about to train as an installer, so checking compatibility with my current devices in HC. I have several of these TRV's, and also am aware you don't want a boiler firing when all valves are closed

     

    I currently have some logic to create a multi zone heating system (Vera/Reactor Plugin) that looks at all the valves and if ANY are temp < setpoint* then turn on boiler. If ALL are temp >= setpoint* then turn off boiler. Can that just not be set up in a scene in HC?

     

    * I actually have the logic to turn off 1 degree below setpoint as this prevents valves being nearly closed on cold days with older radiators and never getting the room quite to temp to turn off the boiler. Works really well (on 15 TRVs) and means you don't need to mess with parameter 6 to control logic. It's possible to set an offset on the TRV to hide this 1 degree difference if cosmetically you want to look at the TRV and see exacts, but i've not bothered, and just know it will turn off just under displayed value. 

     

    My heating system is critical to home automation but I've found this way works, possible it can be done on HC? (If not then thats a deal breaker for me).

     

    It is no problem to make the logic to Turn ON Boiler if TRV Temperature is below TRV setpoint and Turn OFF Boiler if TRV temperature is above TRV setpoint.

    The problem is however as your TRV temperature reaches its TRV setpoint the TRV valve starts to close. The TRV valve has a PID controller inside that tries to maintain the room temperature to the desired TRV setpoint.

     

    This means that the valve is not behaving as an open or closing valve and as all these TRV's start to reach their setpoint they start to close and restrict the flow which will increase the pressure in your system! Therefore you always have to install a pressure bypass in your system when using TRV's! This is often not clarified in the commercial documentation by these TRV manufactures, all they can mention is the 30% savings you will get with these devices....

     

    Also read your boiler documentation carefully, some boilers have a cooldown period. This means when you send your Boiler off command because all of your TRV's have reached their TRV setpoint a boiler keeps the pump running so the remaining heat in the system gets distributed to the radiators. As the TRV's have reached their setpoint and probably will be closed your boiler is letting the pump run against closed valves and again will increase the pressure in the system.

     

    It seems all so easy to just replace your radiator valves with some TRV's and have a multi room heating system, but when you have your own boiler there is more that meets the eye. And probably in the beginning everything will work as expected maybe for a few years.. a modern boiler has pressure interlocks as well.. but you don't wont to rely on these systems and end with a broken pipeline and a wet home..

     

    Therefore we need more direct control over these TRV's, you want to at least be able to read the valve position.

    Your boiler is an on-off regulation your TRV is a analog regulation, simply stopping the boiler when the TRV has reached its setpoint is not enough.

    You at least need to be able to check if the valve position is open, if not stop the boiler.

    It would even be better if you would be able to disable the PID regulation of the TRV and let it behave as an open close valve.

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0
    On 2/26/2021 at 7:58 AM, CoopR said:

     

    It is no problem to make the logic to Turn ON Boiler if TRV Temperature is below TRV setpoint and Turn OFF Boiler if TRV temperature is above TRV setpoint.

    The problem is however as your TRV temperature reaches its TRV setpoint the TRV valve starts to close. The TRV valve has a PID controller inside that tries to maintain the room temperature to the desired TRV setpoint.

     

    This means that the valve is not behaving as an open or closing valve and as all these TRV's start to reach their setpoint they start to close and restrict the flow which will increase the pressure in your system! Therefore you always have to install a pressure bypass in your system when using TRV's! This is often not clarified in the commercial documentation by these TRV manufactures, all they can mention is the 30% savings you will get with these devices....

     

    Also read your boiler documentation carefully, some boilers have a cooldown period. This means when you send your Boiler off command because all of your TRV's have reached their TRV setpoint a boiler keeps the pump running so the remaining heat in the system gets distributed to the radiators. As the TRV's have reached their setpoint and probably will be closed your boiler is letting the pump run against closed valves and again will increase the pressure in the system.

     

    It seems all so easy to just replace your radiator valves with some TRV's and have a multi room heating system, but when you have your own boiler there is more that meets the eye. And probably in the beginning everything will work as expected maybe for a few years.. a modern boiler has pressure interlocks as well.. but you don't wont to rely on these systems and end with a broken pipeline and a wet home..

     

    Therefore we need more direct control over these TRV's, you want to at least be able to read the valve position.

    Your boiler is an on-off regulation your TRV is a analog regulation, simply stopping the boiler when the TRV has reached its setpoint is not enough.

    You at least need to be able to check if the valve position is open, if not stop the boiler.

    It would even be better if you would be able to disable the PID regulation of the TRV and let it behave as an open close valve.

     

     

     

    Normal practice (in the UK) is to have a radiator not controlled by TRV (like bathroom towel rail) to ensure there is never a situation with boiler on and all valves closed. But this goes away with smart logic. When all my rooms are at (or just below, so valves are not 100% closed) setpoint, my boiler turns off. I can control the boiler and also pump with smart home control, so I have a logic in place if the pump is off, the boiler also always turns off. If inconsistent for some reason, I get an alert sent to check it (but very very rare).

    Also not all systems are pressurised, many are vented, and cannot over pressure too :)

     

    It's actually really easy to build (on Vera at least, and this is why im checking into Fibaros pro's /limitations) safety interlocks to prevent bad things happening at the boiler/pump level, rather than into each individual device.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0
  • Inquirer
  • 21 hours ago, Darryl said:

     

    Normal practice (in the UK) is to have a radiator not controlled by TRV (like bathroom towel rail) to ensure there is never a situation with boiler on and all valves closed. But this goes away with smart logic. When all my rooms are at (or just below, so valves are not 100% closed) setpoint, my boiler turns off. I can control the boiler and also pump with smart home control, so I have a logic in place if the pump is off, the boiler also always turns off. If inconsistent for some reason, I get an alert sent to check it (but very very rare).

    Also not all systems are pressurised, many are vented, and cannot over pressure too :)

     

    It's actually really easy to build (on Vera at least, and this is why im checking into Fibaros pro's /limitations) safety interlocks to prevent bad things happening at the boiler/pump level, rather than into each individual device.

     

    It's basically the same as in the Netherlands. The only difference i believe is that in the UK, radiators are fed from the bottom and also the thermostats/open/close valves are mounted on the lower part of the radiator. In the Netherlands heat is fed from the top and flows to the bottom alo the thermostat is mounted on top feeding pipe of the radiator.

     

    In most common installations in the Netherlands that have a central heating boiler, there is a central thermostat in the living room, all radiators mounted in the living room are open so you always have an open heating circuit. In all other rooms there are mechanical thermostats mounted where you can set a desired temperature (dail 1 to 5). These rooms are not able to request heat from the boiler, and only receive heat when the central thermostat in the living room requires heating.

     

    How do you verify if a valve is not 100% closed? Does the % valve position reporting works in the Vera controller?

    Or do you make the assumption when Temp is lower as Setpoint valve cannot be closed?

     

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    • 0

    You can control your valves as on/off when you set the temperature to 28°C when you turn them on and to 10°C when you turn them off. The only thing you need is another temperature sensor in the room for controlling the temperature. For example, when you want 21°C in your room set the valve to on and 28°C with the boiler on when it is below 20.5°C and when it gets to 21.5°C turn the valve off and to 10°C with the boiler off. You probably need some finetuning, but this will probably work.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

    Guest
    Answer this question...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

     Share

    ×
    ×
    • Create New...