How long will a UBS last on a 9volt battery

[MattyO 4]

I was wanting to use a UBS on my gate to show it has been opened. I just want to use the one input. How long would it last on a battery. I am currently using a door/windows sensor but have started to have trouble with it not working until the gate is opened and closed a few times. 

 

 

Found the answer only a couple of days. Please disregard. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by MattyO

[Fabir 65]

@MattyOHi, the UBS is zwave only, I've had some bad experience trough the years, with zwave devices on fibaro homecenters.

 

Get rid of any zwave devices, only use zwave+ devices. In this use case, I would use a

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.

This device also needs a power supply. I only use 12V 2A power supply for Smart Implant.

 

If you can't get power to the gate, use a 9V Battery Accumulator and replace it with another fully charged accumulator, regularly or when the battery is low.

I don't know, how long the 9V accumulator would last, in this use case.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Fabir

[petergebruers 1,264]

7 hours ago, MattyO said:

Found the answer only a couple of days. Please disregard. 

 

Okay, good you found it, lets explain it for other users to their benefit...

 

I think a runtime of days on 9V battery - that is even optimistic, imho it would be less.

 

From the top of my memory: the UBS needs 60 mA to start (at around 6 V, so that is below spec)), but uses less than 30 mA @ 12 V when it is running.

 

The main issue is, this class devices is always on and is part of your active mesh, it can receive and forward Z-Wave packets. A battery powered door sensor does not do that.

 

1 hour ago, Fabir said:

Get rid of any zwave devices, only use zwave+ devices. In this use case, I would use a

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.

100% agree

 

1 hour ago, Fabir said:

This device also needs a power supply. I only use 12V 2A power supply for Smart Implant.

I did not measure the power needs of the smart implant because I do not own one bet we can assume that it is more efficient than its predecessor, the UBS.

 

This indeed like you say still does not allow the use of 9V batteries

 

1 hour ago, Fabir said:

If you can't get power to the gate, use a 9V Battery Accumulator

 

Interesting suggestion, can we do a back-of-the-envelope calculation for a 12V 17Ah battery? That is a big hunk of lead but it is a popular size. For lifespan, let us not use more than 50% of its capacity. And I would guess that the "Smart Implant" only needs 15 mA

 

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What, 100 EUR? Expensive! Seems the pandemic + world situation has doubled or even tripled the price really fast!

 

(17Ah * 0.5)/0.015A = 566 h

 

24days. Mew! That still not great isn't it? My assumptions may be conservative but still doubling that would not make it a great solution.

 

Adding a solar panel and charger, yeah, that would make a difference though!

 

Actually, if you can repair that "FGK-101" (or live with the downsides), your current setup is a good solution because that model still has the terminal block to connect to your reed sensor... Its success has lost it.

 

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Wat you could try imho ids to put the FGDW-002 in a water proof enclosure but I am assuming you have thought of that and you do not have the space to do that?

 

You would get twice the battery life of the FGK-101 and as a bonus have an outdoor temperature sensor (*). Also, it does not have a tendency to "reset" itself from the network.

 

I'll quickly cross reference the OPs previous post for sake of context

 

 

(*) The temperature sensor does have a quirk - with a workaround:

 

 

 

[MattyO 4]

@petergebruersThanks for all the great info. Today I setup a little experiment. I hooked up the UBS in parallel with the fgk-101. So I could at least work out if it was a cable issue or even the magnetic sensor on the gate. I figured if FGK was the issue, then the UBS would still trigger. Annoyingly since I have done this both sensors have been working all day. So I am not sure what is happenig. It will be interesting to see what happens when the battery goes flat on the UBS. I had previously been using the FGK-101 with an external temp sensor and gat sensor for over 4 years and it has been fine. So idea why it has started to give me issues now. I have even swapped it fo another d/w sensor.

 

[petergebruers 1,264]

17 minutes ago, MattyO said:

I hooked up the UBS in parallel with the fgk-101. So I could at least work out if it was a cable issue or even the magnetic sensor on the gate. I figured if FGK was the issue, then the UBS would still trigger.

Clever experiment! I have to be honest with you, would they still work together (in parallel) - the answer, after 10 years with Fibaro is:

 

I do not know!

 

Here is why:

 

Both sensors have active (digital? probably!) inputs and they have some protection and pull up to detect the "closed" contact.

 

They both use the same type of MCU so thresholds should be compatible if the input circuit is compatible.

 

From your experiment I deduce: yes they can work in parallel

 

17 minutes ago, MattyO said:

Annoyingly since I have done this both sensors have been working all day.

 

You did not mention the exact symptom you have but I make educated guesses:

 

Here is are possible explanations:

 

- there is water ingress. The cable or the read contact now shows a bit of "leakage resistance" and your FGK thinks the contact is always closed. By adding the UBS you added a stronger pullup and it overcomes that leakage

 

- you did not full press the tamper button, the plastic "thong" on the back of the D/W sensor. If you used double side tape, after some time it will loosen and then you get issues with "tamper".

 

17 minutes ago, MattyO said:

I had previously been using the FGK-101 with an external temp sensor and gat sensor for over 4 years

I love that combination. I have one in the garden, under a roof, in a plastic ziplock bag, since 2018. No issues yet. The bag is not the real protection, I noticed mice gnawed through the bag and p**ed on the sensor 

Edited November 21, 2022 by petergebruers

[MattyO 4]

11 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

You did not mention the exact symptom you have but I make educated guesses:

 

Here is are possible explanations:

 

- there is water ingress. The cable or the read contact now shows a bit of "leakage resistance" and your FGK thinks the contact is always closed. By adding the UBS you added a stronger pullup and it overcomes that leakage

 

- you did not full press the tamper button, the plastic "thong" on the back of the D/W sensor. If you used double side tape, after some time it will loosen and then you get issues with "tamper".

MMMM very interesting. you could be onto something. I have the sensor in a water sealed electrical box. So I think that is fine. But the reed switch could be the issue. it is a commercial water proof type. But the issue is happening while there has been a lot of rain. Do you know if there is a way to duplicate the effect of a stronger pullup resistor.

Also I have not got the tamper switch pressed at all. But I never have had, as it is just sitting inside the box. Bat has it cover on the D/W sensor.

 

Also I meant to say. The issue is the sensor will stop triggering but will some time come good if I open and close the gate a few times. 

Edited November 21, 2022 by MattyO

[petergebruers 1,264]

14 minutes ago, MattyO said:

I have the sensor in a water sealed electrical box. So I think that is fine.

Probably! I have a rule of thumb: either make it 100% watertight or make it OPEN (so moisture can get back out). Getting something 99% watertight tends to draw in moisture and due to thermal cycling it condenses where you don't want it to: on the inside, on your electronics. I have had more than one outdoor LED light fail with (a spoonful of) water in it.

 

After 4 yours a certain amount of fine particles and soot might have formed on eg the PCB which then makes it slightly conductive in humid conditions. I had that a lot with AEOTEC old MultiSensor outdoor under a roof.

 

I could rinse the sensor PCB in isopropanol and prolong its life until I got fed up

 

We are talking about (tens of) micro-ampere in this case. I don't have the figures at hand but I think that sensor "sees" a 50k or a 100k resistor between IN and GND as "closed".

 

14 minutes ago, MattyO said:

it is a commercial water proof type.

Sounds good

 

14 minutes ago, MattyO said:

Do you know if there is a way to duplicate the effect of a stronger pullup resistor.

Eh

 

Probably

 

If you have some resistors, say between 10k and 100k and connect that onto the terminal block between the IN and the Power VCC of the DS18b20 you might have a temporary workaround.

 

I can test that for you but not right now.

 

I say temporary because I think if you have leakage you are also getting galvanic effects, ie that small current will slowly eat away the metal of your conductor. I have seen cheap PCBs used as soil moisture sensors eaten away in less than a year.

 

14 minutes ago, MattyO said:

Also I have not got the tamper switch pressed at all.

Okay we can eliminate that from the problem list

Edited November 21, 2022 by petergebruers

[MattyO 4]

I don’t think it is corrosion as I have swapped the d/w sensor for another one. But I have had another thought.  Even though I am using double insulated wire. It is sitting on the ground so the wire could be absorbing the water and increasing resistance maybe. I could try putting it in conduit. Bit of a long stretch. 

[petergebruers 1,264]

36 minutes ago, MattyO said:

I don’t think it is corrosion as I have swapped the d/w sensor for another one.

OK!

 

36 minutes ago, MattyO said:

But I have had another thought.  Even though I am using double insulated wire. It is sitting on the ground so the wire could be absorbing the water and increasing resistance maybe.

I am sure you are right about that, and micro-amps do not matter for typical electrical equipment like lamps and pumps. Though some types of LED glow faintly over long wire... Which is probably capacitive coupling but maybe also a bit resistive.

 

It is an interesting thought.

 

38 minutes ago, MattyO said:

I could try putting it in conduit. Bit of a long stretch.

What about heating parts of the setup (eg the sensor, then the exposed cable) with a hair dryer when FGK says stuck "closed"?

 

Thinking out loud... Can it be a Z-Wave issue? In that case eg wake-up (ie multiple clicks on internal button until light blinks) should trigger status update on HC...

[MattyO 4]

2 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

Thinking out loud... Can it be a Z-Wave issue? In that case eg wake-up (ie multiple clicks on internal button until light blinks) should trigger status update on HC...

That was my original thinking and why I went for running two sensors in parallel. 
but then of course the UBS could be working as a repeater. Lol. So many ifs. 

[petergebruers 1,264]

7 minutes ago, MattyO said:

So many ifs. 

Indeed my friend. Makes it easy to "jump to conclusions". You have a multimeter? I would say that cable should measure > 1 megaohm. The correct tool to measure the cable is (colloquially) called a "megger" but it is somewhat specialist equipment, it is an electrician's tool.

Edited November 21, 2022 by petergebruers

[MattyO 4]

Yep I have a multimeter. I will start trying a few of theses things. 
thanks so much for all your suggestions @petergebruersyou have given me plenty to think about. The irony is I live in Melbourne Australian and it is nearly summer and should be hat and dry. Instead we are having floods and wild weather for weeks now.