2 Linked Heating Devices driving one Heating Switch

[rvorsten 0]

Hi -

I have multiple heating zones and one central heater device. Each zone has zwave thermostat valves and a temperature sensor. My intend is that each room can ask for heat, and therefore switch on the central heater.

However, is more than one zone control the same heater switch and one rooms, then the heater switch starts toggling:

Zone 1: heating yes / Zone 2: heating no: heater every minute goes on/off/on/off/on/off etc.

What I would like to see is an 'OR' logic. If any one of the heating zones asks for heating, then keep the heater on.

I'm currently running 1.047 but also tried this in 3.424. Same result. Work-around is to use multiple (hardware) switches in parallel, but with 5 zones (and counting) that becomes pretty expensive and is an ugly solution as well.

I have been thinking about building a virtual device to hold the logic but currently have no clue how to start that.

Lot of questions here:

Anyone every seen this too?

Anyone ever come up with a solution?

Anyone an idea how to build the virtual device for this?

Is this functionality on the roadmap at all?

Thanks!

Ronald

[BvD 0]

+1

I need similar setup with 6 Danfoss Living Connect radiator valves and 1 Danfoss Link Boiler Relay.

[richo 4]

The solution is not to use a boiler relay. With my Vaillant boiler I have a security pipe that allows you to use it w/o room regulator. As far as I know you can add such a pipe with small flow to connect IN/OUT water flow in any boiler and allow a pump to work after all radiator thermostats are closed without destroying it. Check your boiler technical manual or ask your installation company if it's possible.

I have 7 zones with combination of 13 Danfoss Z-wave and 2 regular electrical valves with Fibaro switches. All zones are controlled by HC heating panel. It works both on 1.044 and 3.424. However with many Danfoss thermostats you need to increase the probation times both in valves and HC as otherwise the mesh can slow down significantly and you can get many dead devices.

[Guest Kuuno]

couldn't you use scene for that

if any of the relays is open then start pump andif all relays are closed then turn pump of

[rvorsten 0]

Richo - what you are saying makes complete sense, but it is not my challenge. In my house, a thermostate sends a pulse to my heater, which then fires up and starts heating the warmer which is then pumped to the radiators.

For the sake of example: I have 2 heating zones (eg livingroom & bathroom), each with a temperature sensor, and each with Danfoss valve connected to the radiator. When my living room is warm and the bathroom needs heating, HC2 switches on my heater (as expected since bathroom is cold) and a minute later switches off the heater (as the living room is warm!). A minute later, it goes on (bathroom!) again and - guess what - a minute later off again (living room!). And so on and so forth... Not what I want. I expect this to be a bug in the heating panels logic, as I cannot think why anyone would want this toggling behavior.

I have however also found a work-around, which I will describe in a separate post.

[ Added: 2013-02-25, 23:26 ]

couldn't you use scene for that

if any of the relays is open then start pump andif all relays are closed then turn pump of

I could, but that would need a large number of relays if you have multiple zones: one switch for wach zone. Easier than using a scene would be to connect all switches in parallel but, again, you would still need one switch per zone (and I have 6!).

Work-around posted in next post below...

[ Added: 2013-02-25, 23:33 ]

Work-around to the above:

- Buy a timer-relay (roughly €30-€40) which has an 'off-delay' function

- Set the 'Off-delay' between 70 & 80 seconds

- Use one FGS-2x1 switch to trigger the timer-relay, and have the timer-relay control the heater/boiler (replacing the traditional thermostate)

What you then get is that even though the FGS-2X1 will be going on/off/on/off every minute, each cycle it will reset the 70 second countdown of the timer-relay. So even though the FGS-2X1 wants to switch off the heater, the relay will keep it on. Only when all zones stop asking heat, the relay will time out after 70 seconds, and switch off the heater...

Simple, tested and works likes a charm!

[Guest MitchellOnline]

Richo - what you are saying makes complete sense, but it is not my challenge. In my house, a thermostate sends a pulse to my heater, which then fires up and starts heating the warmer which is then pumped to the radiators.

For the sake of example: I have 2 heating zones (eg livingroom & bathroom), each with a temperature sensor, and each with Danfoss valve connected to the radiator. When my living room is warm and the bathroom needs heating, HC2 switches on my heater (as expected since bathroom is cold) and a minute later switches off the heater (as the living room is warm!). A minute later, it goes on (bathroom!) again and - guess what - a minute later off again (living room!). And so on and so forth... Not what I want. I expect this to be a bug in the heating panels logic, as I cannot think why anyone would want this toggling behavior.

I have however also found a work-around, which I will describe in a separate post.

[ Added: 2013-02-25, 23:26 ]

couldn't you use scene for that

if any of the relays is open then start pump andif all relays are closed then turn pump of

I could, but that would need a large number of relays if you have multiple zones: one switch for wach zone. Easier than using a scene would be to connect all switches in parallel but, again, you would still need one switch per zone (and I have 6!).

Work-around posted in next post below...

[ Added: 2013-02-25, 23:33 ]

Work-around to the above:

- Buy a timer-relay (roughly €30-€40) which has an 'off-delay' function

- Set the 'Off-delay' between 70 & 80 seconds

- Use one FGS-2x1 switch to trigger the timer-relay, and have the timer-relay control the heater/boiler (replacing the traditional thermostate)

What you then get is that even though the FGS-2X1 will be going on/off/on/off every minute, each cycle it will reset the 70 second countdown of the timer-relay. So even though the FGS-2X1 wants to switch off the heater, the relay will keep it on. Only when all zones stop asking heat, the relay will time out after 70 seconds, and switch off the heater...

Simple, tested and works likes a charm!

Good and smart solution, but it will reduce the lifetime of your Fibaro relais. I have 5 heating zones, and buyed 3 Fibaro 2x1,5KW relais.

I have connected them parallel to my boiler and works like a charm. The only problem is when you are leaving your house, you have to log in on your HC2 and turn on the holiday mode.

I have fixed this by adding another Fibaro relais and connected it serially so it will interrupt the 3 Fibaro 2x1,5KW relais.

[rvorsten 0]

Richo - what you are saying makes complete sense, but it is not my challenge. In my house, a thermostate sends a pulse to my heater, which then fires up and starts heating the warmer which is then pumped to the radiators.

For the sake of example: I have 2 heating zones (eg livingroom & bathroom), each with a temperature sensor, and each with Danfoss valve connected to the radiator. When my living room is warm and the bathroom needs heating, HC2 switches on my heater (as expected since bathroom is cold) and a minute later switches off the heater (as the living room is warm!). A minute later, it goes on (bathroom!) again and - guess what - a minute later off again (living room!). And so on and so forth... Not what I want. I expect this to be a bug in the heating panels logic, as I cannot think why anyone would want this toggling behavior.

I have however also found a work-around, which I will describe in a separate post.

[ Added: 2013-02-25, 23:26 ]

couldn't you use scene for that

if any of the relays is open then start pump andif all relays are closed then turn pump of

I could, but that would need a large number of relays if you have multiple zones: one switch for wach zone. Easier than using a scene would be to connect all switches in parallel but, again, you would still need one switch per zone (and I have 6!).

Work-around posted in next post below...

[ Added: 2013-02-25, 23:33 ]

Work-around to the above:

- Buy a timer-relay (roughly €30-€40) which has an 'off-delay' function

- Set the 'Off-delay' between 70 & 80 seconds

- Use one FGS-2x1 switch to trigger the timer-relay, and have the timer-relay control the heater/boiler (replacing the traditional thermostate)

What you then get is that even though the FGS-2X1 will be going on/off/on/off every minute, each cycle it will reset the 70 second countdown of the timer-relay. So even though the FGS-2X1 wants to switch off the heater, the relay will keep it on. Only when all zones stop asking heat, the relay will time out after 70 seconds, and switch off the heater...

Simple, tested and works likes a charm!

Good and smart solution, but it will reduce the lifetime of your Fibaro relais. I have 5 heating zones, and buyed 3 Fibaro 2x1,5KW relais.

I have connected them parallel to my boiler and works like a charm. The only problem is when you are leaving your house, you have to log in on your HC2 and turn on the holiday mode.

I have fixed this by adding another Fibaro relais and connected it serially so it will interrupt the 3 Fibaro 2x1,5KW relais.

I see what you mean. Indeed, my relais is switching every minute now. On the flip-side, it is not switching a 100W (0,5A) heater, but a 15mA relais control-contact, which should keep it from wearing out. And - I can use the second contact of my 221 AND buy two more of the same device when both contacts broke, before "we get even"

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The "Master-switch" as you use it is an excellent idea. I am facing the sale "6x holiday mode" challenge here. Thnaks for mentioning that!

[stevenvd 51]

there is a simple way of fixing this. If Fibaro would make a linked device panel which just does an 'OR' statement between the linked devices for your heating...

[Guest Kuuno]

what heating device do you have?

some devices have preset temp ranges so when it reaches some temp it switches off and it is not recomenned way to manuaölly trigger as it shoertens the life of the heater

(this is for ground source heat pumps)

[robmac 173]

manuaölly trigger as it shoertens the life of the heater

(this is for ground source heat pumps)

Condensing boilers don't like it too much either and it is very inefficient.

Even zone valves and electric will fail more quickly if cycled too many times.

Needs an 'OR' with a configurable turn on again delay and minimum run so that it can be configured to limit the cycles to few an hour

say 12 for elec

9 for gas condensing

6 for oil condensing

or whatever the manual recommends for your heating source

[rvorsten 0]

Needs an 'OR' with a configurable turn on again delay and minimum run so that it can be configured to limit the cycles to few an hour

Exactly!

Again: I simply want to say: ON of OFF to my central heater for a specific zone/room. My heater itself contains the logic to determine if it must continue heating the water, or not, depending on the temperature of the return water.

My issue is that with >1 zones controlling the heater, one zone may need warming up and the other one does not. In this case, the heater must still remain ON for zone 1, and I will close the (Danfoss) valves in zone 2 so that that zone no longer continues getting heated. Currently however, HC2 starts toggling the heater on/off/on/off every minutes, which is why I installed an off delay relay as describes above.

What HC2 should do (and as per Robmac) is do an OR statement for the heat device, so that the heater goes on if zone 1 OR zone 2 needs heating...

[richo 4]

If you want to use "or" statement you have to write a code in LUA to control your devices. Then you don't use heating panel because your LUA scene and heating panel may send conflicting commands to switches.

I don't have a specific code to help you out but you can start a block scene, use multiple devices choice then convert scene to LUA. In block mode all multiple devices will be connected with "and" you just replace it with "or". Thats the easy way to do it.

A pity but as far as I know you cant use or control any of the panels in LUA...

[rvorsten 0]

If you want to use "or" statement you have to write a code in LUA to control your devices. Then you don't use heating panel because your LUA scene and heating panel may send conflicting commands to switches.

I have indeed been considering that option. It is however a hell of a job to develop the entire heating panel functionality in LUA. And, I would completely lack the graphical users interface then from both browser and the iPhone/iPad.

Do you - or does anyone else know if any of the 'internal heating panel parameters' are accessible from LUA? If so, then I could still use the heating panel functionality, not assign a switch to the heating panel output, use LUA code to monitor each heating panel status for "heating YES/NO", and then perform the OR statement in LUA accordingly for driving the switch that controls my heater device...

[ Added: 04 Mar 2013 02:11 ]

So - I have now also found another 'work-around for the multiple heating zones controlling one central heater. "All it requires" is a spare output, on any of your devices, to be used as an intermediary toggling switch (as in my hardware solution with a timer relay). You select this in the "switch 1" dropdown in each of the the linked heating devices section. Without any further adjustments, this switch will now start toggling on&off, which is why I built the following scenes around it.

Define two variables: HEATER_MEM1 and HEATER_MEM2.

Two disadvantages are:

- You have to sacrifice a switch which will probably wear out sooner, as it will be switching on/off every minute

- Switching off the heater will be delayed by 2 minutes at all times.

But... it works and my bathroom finally is warm...

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[stevenvd 51]

I tried doing the same, but it's just stupid as the functionality is basicly build in. Just not made for multiple rooms...

I think this is a fair feature request to Fibaro...?

[rvorsten 0]

I tried doing the same, but it's just stupid as the functionality is basicly build in. Just not made for multiple rooms...

I think this is a fair feature request to Fibaro...?

Couldn't agree more but hey... my bathroom was cold and 'the chief' here was complaining...

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[stevenvd 51]

Hahaha, understood

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[robmac 173]

I tried doing the same, but it's just stupid as the functionality is basicly build in. Just not made for multiple rooms...

I think this is a fair feature request to Fibaro...?

Couldn't agree more but hey... my bathroom was cold and 'the chief' here was complaining...

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+1 as a feature and

++++ on the issue with the chief

did similar to you but in LUA code to keep the number of scenes down.

Another great feature would be if the blocks supported an "elseif" logic construct so you could do more in blocks without having to resort to many scenes.

[rvorsten 0]

++++ on the issue with the chief

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Did similar to you but in LUA code to keep the number of scenes down.

Sure. I woud have done that to but I went back to 1.047 due to too many issues with the beta, so no LUA for me just yet...

Another great feature would be if the blocks supported an "elseif" logic construct so you could do more in blocks without having to resort to many scenes.

Indeed - I dearly miss 'ELSEIF' too...

[remcoploeg 10]

It's still a pity that this functionality is still no in the latest beta version.....

[rvorsten 0]

It's still a pity that this functionality is still no in the latest beta version.....

Indeed and since it's not in the beta, it is also unlike to be in the (soon to be expected) v4.x. However, fvb83 recently published a very smart and easy work-around in

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. If you're struggling with this problem, check that for a possible solution. It works like a charm for me!

Ronald

[remcoploeg 10]

thanks Ronald.

But with that solution, I can't use the ipad app or other apps anymore to manage my temperature. It's really pity because the fix in the HC2 is simple to achieve this problem we all have. Let's hope that 4.x has something for this...