HCL - what is the strategic concept

[Cosworth32 0]

I've had my HCL a couple of weeks now. The initial buying decision was based on the idea that if Fibaro launch a device without LUA code there must be a strong graphical potential in the product for doing the things you want.

Remember the main shortcomings of HCL vs HC2 are:

♦ No LUA (scripting / code)

♦ No LiLi (Voice control)

♦ No VOIP (Voice over IP)

On the positive side there's a lot of potential in the http API for using other products to control HCL. Also I really like the android app.

On the negative side here are some of my disappointments so far.

- Scenes cannot log their own execution in the event log

- No debugging of scene logic possible.

- Many boxes in scene editor are redundant depending what you do or just plain illogical

- Heating panel is crude with no chance for offset values in a group. (some thermostats need different settings due to their location)

- You can't link a temperature sensor with a thermostat - only a boiler switch.

- Thermostats can be in multiple panel groups causing interference between the groups

- No variables apart from _sliderValue_ in virtual devices (that one is shocking to me as that wouldbe the bare minimum I would expect.)

- Missing documentation of the things that do work

- You can pass parameters to virtual device buttons but not use them for anything.

- Virtual devices can't be triggers in scenes.

- Variables can't be displayed easily anywhere

- Notifications that have to be predefined are cumbersome. Needs to be modifiable in scenes.

I get that HCL is simpler than HC2 but it seems it is almost useless without an external scripting server. LUA doesn't solve all of the problems even so maybe there is a bigger issue with Fibaro controllers. Is the No LUA decision only made to warrant a price difference between HC2 and HCL or are there actual engineering reasons for it? (Like performance or similar)

I guess my real question is: what is the concept and roadmap for the HCL because simple does not equal useful in it's current state.

[Shad 4]

For me it have 2 problem with HCL:

- People buy quickly that controller, but don't think why a big difference of the price and what happen if they remove lua

- Fibaro and dealer don't explain what are the limit of HCL.

And for me the concept of HCL:

- UPS for this one

- You can send sms

- expand z-wave with a second controller, and you can control it from HC2.

[Dalle1985 16]

The only reason I could see for buying the HCL would be because I'd want to save a little cash, but that doesn't really play well with the fact that if you want a full-home integration, you'll be spending quite a bit of cash anyway, so the controller is a strange place to save.

The lack of Lua means that it is far less costumizable. It is ofcourse possible to run everything of an external scripting server. I'm guessing I have one if the most extensive external scripts running parallel to hc2 with my quest for proper home integration through fixed tablets, but this is only related to command execution, there is no real output scripting in it as there will be noticeable lack. All my control scripts are programmed as scenes and then the external script simply runs the scene or manipulates a single component. No sequence handling is done via my external scripts.

I foresee quite a bit of trouble getting i.e. a motion detector to trigger a sequence of events off an external script as it might only be active for a fraction of a second, so you'd have to poll the hcl perhaps every 100 or 200 ms to ensure you catch all changes, putting a lot of traffic through your network. Overall, my guess will be that if you run an external scripting server for a hcl, your options will still be extremely limited and it will be prone to lapses, scripts not working correctly or something happening at random.

Z-wave only makes sense to me if you can create scripts to fit your needs. Otherwise, you might as well hardwire to get infinite reliability. So I don't see the reason for the HCL other than extremely simple applications (such as being able to turn on the heating remotely).

[Cosworth32 0]

I've considered returning my HCL due to its restrictive nature, but instead opted for placing the intelligent stuff outside of HCL. This allows for much simpler use of HCL and some interesting new options open up.

Just as my own proof of concept I've setup a webserver (on a NAS) running a php script. The script is triggered by virtual device buttons in HCL. In HCL I call this:

"GET /HCL_helper.php?device=netgear&cmd=MAC" and get a scene updated back into HCL about the presence of certain MAC adresses as one way to determine if someone is home.

HCL then acts as event trigger in scenarios like this

HCL Scene->Web server->third party network device->HCL

or sometimes just

HCL Scene->Web server->HCL

Making a more intelligent heating schedule is next on my list.

No polling of HCL is involved.

The fact that this is needed should discourage any non programmer from using HCL as the master z-wave controller.

[KristianO 15]

Cosworth32: I'm running the same set-up and is so far very pleased with that.

I'm using the Webserver for collecting data and create graphs.

Can you please share your Php script for the precense determination?

And some more details what you have done please.

I'm rather new but I'd love that!

Thanks!

[Rami 0]

I'm using mine with a veralite to make use of all the LUA , device support and plugins of the veralite , there are 2 ways to use it .

- To make the veralite a secondary controller .

- To use the veralite as a standalone controller and integrate both HCL and VERA using http commands .

Now i'm using the second option but i think i'll turn to the first option just to get a full zwave coverage .

[Cosworth32 0]

Can you please share your Php script for the precense determination?

Sure. The function that does the lifting looks like this.

(assumes the main program calls the relevant scene in HCL afterwards if the MAC is detected)

This is for a netgear router but any router should work if you adjust the url.

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[KristianO 15]

ok, so you create a virtual device calling this php script (HCL_helper.php) on a regular basis. It then sends back the status of possible found MAC adress?

Id like to have a device checking what mac adresses (iphones) that are connected to my airport wifi. possible?

Thanks

[Dalle1985 16]

How is the response when handling a zwave event? I'm thinking a motion detector? Will the json change for long enough for your handler script to catch it?

I'm also building an external heating control handler using php and mysql to handle the setpoint schedules. It will handle up to 8 sets of schedules (modes) and has full week control. The heating support in fibaro is ridiculously bad. It will auto disable when you open a window and restart when windows are closed. If you leave home without turning off the heating, it will automatically start turning the heat down if no motion is detected for more than 24 hours (1 degree every 12 hours until temp is 15 degrees). If motion is detected it will reset to the active schedule. Finally it also has a vacation mode for those romantic getaways to Bora Bora

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[Cosworth32 0]

No polling of the HCL - That would be too unreliable. Event driven architecture is the way to go if at all possible.

You plans for heating control sound cool. Let us know how it works out for you.

[zwaveindia 1]

Provision of expansion slots, GSM, Battery backup units indicates HCL is mainly for Alarm and security systems where LUA, Lili and Voip are not much required.

Good thing is HCL has all other automation features what HC2 has, with price less than half.

And also HCL acts as a remote (slave) gateway which improves network stability.

[Cosworth32 0]

It seems there's some potential for Lua in scenes on HCL if you really want it.

Image is not fake and script actually runs.

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[KristianO 15]

Tell me more...

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[Rami 0]

Please please more

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[Cosworth32 0]

Sorry - tried to but I can't

Your Post which you write on: "FORUM FIBARO", was delete by Administrator or Moderator.

Reason: Please dont show how to circumvent security

I don't see how this has anything to do with the customers security (authentication is still required) ??

[A.Socha 133]

with next updates we gonna change architecture and system gonna not work stable and safety for user when you gonna do that "trik"

[Cosworth32 0]

the "trick" is just using the http API. What you are saying is that the API will not be backwards compatible after the next upgrade and any REST based Fibaro interactions will break??

Bummer!

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[Dalle1985 16]

I guess the HCL is running the same core as the HC2 and that it is only a software block that prevents LUA from running. Probably because HCL don't have the same muscle as the HC2 so several LUA-scripts running simultaneously will make the engine run slowly resulting in sluggish response or even core crash, so the entire thing grinds to a halt and needs rebooting.

So i guess i can understand why they'd want to avoid people running lua on a platform that can't support it. But then the kernel part enabling lua should be disabled.

[ivan.ruban 3]

The lack of Lua means that it is far less costumizable. It is ofcourse possible to run everything of an external scripting server.

You are not alone actually, I also think about purchasing HCL and use it in this way - with external scripting server. I can live without LUA in this case, but it is important that API in HCL is completely the same as in HC2 - so I can send callbacks from scripting server to HC.

What relates to not having LiLi in HCL, LiLi is a crap unless there will be a "real time voice recognition" function one day. What is the purpoce of controlling by voice if I need anyway to press a button first?

I'm guessing I have one if the most extensive external scripts running parallel to hc2 with my quest for proper home integration through fixed tablets, but this is only related to command execution, there is no real output scripting in it as there will be noticeable lack. All my control scripts are programmed as scenes and then the external script simply runs the scene or manipulates a single component. No sequence handling is done via my external scripts.

You won't believe but I thougt about a project with HCL, PRi and cheap Denver tabelts (Dannish company by the way :->). So exactly as you already have. In my plans I nevertheless don't want to spend much time for development but use more a less available products. Nevertheless I am very qurious to take a look on your scripts.

I think about running OpenHAB and OpenRemote on RPi:

- OpenHAB for scripting purposes (REST interface for scripts executed by HCL calls beased on events). OpenHAB has also powerfull non-zwave integration.

- OpenRemote for GUI on tablets. It is a nice app for a fast development of GUI. What I miss in a free version - web-view (for streaming video from camera).

So take a look at OpenRemote - it has also notifications (status changes), a really nice product.

As for tablets I want to use them as switches, dimmers, thermostats. It is much cheaper than real devices.

Some questions to you as a tablet expert

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1) What is your experience with tablets? Any problems?

2) Have you passed "the wife test"? My wife is sceptical for using light switches on tablets - she prefers the regular wall switches for that.

3) What tablets do you use? As I mentioned in my case I bought Denvers - cheap Dannish Android tablets available on Swedish market.

4) How do you mount tablets on the wall? Any link to a cheap frame/holder would be nice.

5) How do you power tablets? By a DC adapter to nearest socket? I think to have cable in a "cable channel" to a nearest electrical mount box where I can hide the adapter. Switch box works also fine in this case but should have neutral. It would be nice to have AC-DC adapter powered from only one wire as Fibaro dimmer does, but I have not found such.

I guess the HCL is running the same core as the HC2 and that it is only a software block that prevents LUA from running

Yes, I think so. It is cheaper in this way, than supporting of 2 comletely different products.

[Dalle1985 16]

Yes, I passed the "wife test" with flying colors. I'm not completely done with my script yet, but will be shortly. I'll upload it for sharing as soon as it is completed. It should be almost plug'n'play.

However, the HCL won't do it for me as it is impossible to do proper polling with an external script, so if you want advanced motion detection or anything more advanced than simple on/off/fast dim, you'll be out of luck. I'd spend the extra cash and get a HC2 if I had to buy again.

I have ditched the dirt cheap tablets (i bought some from china called Ampe at 450 SEK a piece), fortunately i had only paid for three of them) as they really didn't work that well and two of them burned out in less than a month. Now i've bought some Samsung Galaxy Tab Light (from Sweden actually

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/emoticons/default_icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" /> ) they cost a bit more (1.000 sek pr piece roughly) but the experience is so much better anyway and they work much better. My advice is to spend a little extra on the tablets and buy a brand product like the samsung one.

As to mounting, I've gone very simple; a piece of easily removable tape on the back of the tablet and on the wall to protect them and then some ultra sticky double sided foam tape in between. The tablets are rock solid on the wall now. Much nicer than any frame i've found. The power is delivered from some 5VDC adapters I bought on ebay for 5 dkk pr piece (including shipping) and some 5m micro USB cables. I've added a few pictures to show my setup. We are moving to our new house in a few months and then i'll hide the cables a bit better.

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