Fibaro dimmer as scene controller for Philips Hue

[ivan.ruban 3]

I want to use Fibaro dimmer as a mains powered scene controller to control Philips Hue. When I press S1 or S2 - it run the scene to change light mode on Hue. But I don't want to dim any local load ("O" exit in Fibaro dimmer).

In the wall mounting box I don't want to switch/dim the lamp because Philips Hue lamp just needs to be always on.

Here I have 2 questions in case of which power-connection diagram is used:

Situation 1. [3 wires (bulb, N, L)]. Will Fibaro Dimmer work if I connect only L and N but don't use the load (O on the dimmer)?

As for bulb I plan just to connect bulb-cable to L-cable to have it always powered.

Situation 2. [2 wires (bulb, L)]. I have to connect Fibaro dimmer to bulb and L according to diagram. But is it possible to configure Fibaro dimmer to be always on? So it won't turn off if I press S1.

[P. Ratajczak 0]

Dear Sir,

The solution presented in situation 1 will work without any problems.

Regarding situation 2, where you do not have neutral wire, it is not possible to ensure constant power supply for Phillips light bulb. Once you press S1 it will always change the state of power supply for Phillips.

In this case I would recommend using Door/Window Sensor as a battery-powered input module.

[ivan.ruban 3]

Thanks a lot P. Ratajczak for your answer.

Regarding situation 2 (no N) and D/W sensor. Nice idea - and with a good external battery it will work for years.

But in situation 2 it will actually also work if I connect Fibaro dimmer to Philips hue, but use a one-pad switch connected only to S2. In this way it is a mains powered scene controller and I can run scenes.

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Another question - if I connect Fibaro Dimmer to Philips Hue LED:

Do I need to worry about when using Fibaro Dimmer with Philips Hue LED? I plan to configure the dimmer to be always 100%.

As I can see it will not hurt Philips Hue ("using the bulbs with the dimmer switch set to max would not damage them in any way" - see

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)

But is there any danger for Fibaro Dimmer? I just want to avoid melted dimmers - I had a bad experience in the past:

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[Dalle1985 16]

As long as the dimmer is always on full blast, you'll see no problems as there will be on "chopping" of the incoming sine wave, so there will be no inrush. The melting part is only a problem when dimming because the incoming sine wave is modified by the dimmer which creates some very sudden voltage jumps which in turns cause huge power spikes from the leds driver.

Fibaro really should consider creating a new version of their dimmer with a trailing edge dimmer instead as that will all but elliminate this worry. Furthermore, it would be a better product as it wouldn't create the same buzzing noise as the leading edge device they are selling now.

One ignited dimmer which burns down a house inside the EU where the fault can be traced back to fibaro could be the end of the company! (Compensation to the affected customer, punitive damages, damage to reputation, massive recalls with associated electricians bills)

[ivan.ruban 3]

Hi Dalle1985 and thanks for the answer! It makes me happy, I will install Dimmer+Hue in a nearest future.

I actually like your answers - they are very technical and useful. It is probably because of your electrical engineering background.

I also vote for a new version of Fibaro dimmer. It is a very good product but with a better hardware it would be perfect. Fibaro needs to eliminate a "melting hazard" and a 3-click problem for customers, and thus to minimize also all potential issues for Fibaro as a company. But at least it is important to put the list of compatible and certified bulb vendors and models. It is a must!

[P. Ratajczak 0]

Thank you for your suggestions regarding dimmer module. To avoid the melting risk, it is important to use our modules according to manual instructions. For inductive or capacitive loads, you should set parameter 10 to zero, parameter 12 to maximum and parameter 13 to miminum value.

Since Phillips Hue is a highly capacitive load we would rather recommend using another source of power to supply the Dimmer.

[Dalle1985 16]

Thank you for your suggestions regarding dimmer module. To avoid the melting risk, it is important to use our modules according to manual instructions. For inductive or capacitive loads, you should set parameter 10 to zero, parameter 12 to maximum and parameter 13 to miminum value.

Since Phillips Hue is a highly capacitive load we would rather recommend using another source of power to supply the Dimmer.

How would it help to use a different power supply? Do you mean a different module? Because, the issue is not in supplying the dimmer, it is in the way the dimmer works.

The manual states that for non-resistive loads, current shouldn't exceed 1.5 A - but that is something like 40 Hue bulbs.

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The melting issue is due to a basic principle of switch mode power supplies for LEDs. As you probably know, the dimmer works by cutting away part of the sine curve for the supply, thus turning the connected device on and off with twice the frequency as the mains (50 Hz in Europe). But your dimmer module cuts away the first part of the sine curve (while voltage is rising), a leading edge dimmer, this means that the voltage (and therefore the current) will go from 0 to XX volts very quickly. In the worst case (i.e. 50% dim level) the voltage will go from 0 to 325 V in a 230 V system instantaneously. This means that the capacitors in the LED driver will almost be a short circuit for a brief period. This creates a huge power spike known as an inrush current(a 10 W LED can pull currents of 70-100 A for a few milliseconds in this scenario).

The inrush will deposit quite a bit of energy in the dimmer due to internal resistance and create heat. This heat melts the dimmer.

If you use a trailing edge dimmer, this won't happen as the capacitors are charged "slowly" but discharged quickly - which doesn't really matter. So the trailing edge dimmer doesn't induce inrush currents and are therefore safer to use. At least, the dimmer should include an overheating protection.

Your dimmer comes with no warning regarding use together with LED bulbs and there are several examples of melted dimmers on here.

*** Edit ***

Ive attached An old graph I've posted in another post regarding the same explaining what i described above.

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[P. Ratajczak 0]

By the source of power I meant all the devices which are included in series with the Dimmer, so they can influence final supply conditions. Sorry about the shortcut.

Since Phillips Hue has it's own integrated electronic unit it can cause some disturbances in Dimmer's circuit. This is also the reason why we do not recommend to connect them together.

We are aware of the advantages of trailing edge dimmer, therefore we also reccomend conneting the loads which are not highly capacitive. In this case, the best solution is to use Relay switch module.

Nevertheless thank you for the detailed explanation of the issue.

[ivan.ruban 3]

The advantage of Fibaro Dimmer in comparison with Fibaro Switch is its connection to power supply. I don't have the neutral so Fibaro Dimmer is the only option. Another advatage is scene controlling, but this one can be also achieved on F.Switch using LUA-workaround.

I have actually connected Fibaro Dimmer (no-neutral connection) and Philips Hue bulb. Parameters 10, 12 and 13 are set as recommended. If I don't use Fibaro bypass - the Hue bulb does not like the power source and blinks every second: on>off>on>off... But with a bypass it works just fine. And I can also use S1-pad on Dimmer without any problems, Hue switchs on instantly when it gets a power from Dimmer.

Since we talked a bit about melting and inrush current: is Fibaro Bypass designed to work with Leading Edge Fibaro Dimmer and is resistant to inrush current peaks? I ask because in a link I posted above it was both Dimmer and Bypass that melted. And bypass was in a short cuircut (ohmmeter showed 0 ohm). I have no idea if it was dimmer or bypass that died first in that case...