Should i have really spent my money on a HC2?

[Produno 15]

Im hoping to outfit my new home which im currently renovating with full home automation. I was sucked into Fibaro due to their glossy advertising which inspired me, so i decided to go with the HC2.

Though after reading these forums a lot lately I see a lot of concerns with Fibaro and their system.

Should I really have gone with the HC2? Is my smart home not going to be so smart and just a massive pita? Im hoping a few here can give me some reassurances.

Also what Fibaro products come recommended and which should I avoid like the plague?

Cheers.

[dawiinci 5]

I can't recommend HC2 in the actual state.

[Guest shapa]

Absolutely no.

Spent 2 years trying to make this stuff working. Maximum record - 2 weeks without serious issues (still dead nodes, slownesses, ignored scenes, etc).

Quality of the software is outstandingly low.

Promised features (2 years ago) still not working, system is highly unstable.

Hardware is unreliable and you will loose _everything_ in case of hardware issues. Your configuration, scripts, devices pairings, etc.

They used extremely cheap and unreliable flash to store configurations / backups, a lot of failures happens already (I've got two failures in 4 months (!) )

RMA time is about 3-4 weeks (!!!), you'll be forced to send back to Poland (!!!) and to cover all expenses (!!!).

How it sounds?

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You've got not too much choices.

1) Relatively small network (may be a few dozen devices) - MicasaVerde Vera3

2) Powerful home automation based on z-wave, virtually limitless (due to excellent Python and AppleScript support) - Indigo6.

Be careful about other Fibaro stuff (hardware) - it is good (sometimes), but still not all products. Especially in first hw releases.

[palomaray 5]

Produno the Fibaro system as it stands currently really isn't the finished article, and whilst some of the other products available introduce new software to provide additional functions and minor bug fixes, from my experience Fibaro are not yet at that stage, and each new realise is just a total bare bones development issued for us to find out where it doesn't work.

As Shapa has pointed out, hardware failure could be extremely expensive, and that goes down even as far as the back-up stick which will result in you having to send the whole HC2 to Poland for a fix at your expense.

As with everything computer orientated it depends on your needs and expertise levels as to which system suits your needs best. I used to use HS2 Pro, and have HS3 Pro from Homeseer to use again, and it is excellent, very easy to use and ultra reliable but as with Indigo 6 will need a computer to run on as it is the software you are buying. Homeseer do have the option of trollers, which are an alternative to a separate machine, but running Indigo 6 on a Mac mini seems to be a pretty good option. There is also a few other systems such as Micasaverde etc. which are worth looking at depending on needs.

There are various smaller "home style" systems available, but they may be too limiting depending on your configuration.

Fibaro is very glossy, extremely well designed from a GUI perspective (they clearly have some excellent graphic designers working with them) and from a graphical operational point of view is probably the simplest and best out there. However, if those lovely graphics are sitting on a system which is still very much in development, then only you can decide how many times you want to delete, add, delete, add before you've had enough and sacrifice beauty for reliable functionality.

In a couple of years I think Fibaro will be hard to beat, assuming that in the meantime they do what they should be doing, and listening VERY carefully to their current customers.

[Produno 15]

@Shapa

Heheh, I did see your threads below which prompted me to post here.

Looks like I may have to have a look at Indigo6.

Are most the problems here due to users prematurely upgrading to the Beta's, or are the 'stable' versions also very unreliable?

Its hard enough convincing the g/f to have home automation in the first place, let alone if its keeps causing problems once installed. If that's the case I will be single very quick with a huge mortgage to deal with

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@palomaray

I agree the gui does look impressive, but if the system doesn't function as intended then I may aswell just stick a pretty picture over my tablet. Im quite tech savvy so I don't mind not having the pretty gui if it means getting a system that actually works and doesn't cause continuous problems.

Maybe Fibaro should fire some of these graphic designers and hire more coders

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You mentioned in a couple of years Fibaro will be hard to beat. Though if they don't have the userbase now then I doubt they will survive a couple of years.. So in that respect, would you have enough faith in Fibaro to support them now to enable them to finish the product, or should I just run for the hills??

[palomaray 5]

Produno, When beta releases are issued you would like to think that most of the testing has already been done internally on test systems prior to release. The problem with how Fibaro rolls out beta's is that if you want some of the functionality that has been added in the release you have to install it. However, the problems appear to be in the inability to just roll back an update, and if you do a system restore, very often the pen drives have failed, which you only find out at that point.

I haven't updated for a long time, and even my so called "stable" version still isn't flawless, still giving me frequent dead nodes, which cause issues with scenes.

[UrSv 6]

I've had it for about a year and knowing what I know now I would recommend it without hesitation. It's great and works perfectly in most situations. Some installations have problems but that is no different than any other product on the market. Things break down sometimes which is normal and to be expected as this happens to everything*.

As with many of these fairly complicated systems you need to be either a bit of a tech nerd, have such friends or hire someone to do some stuff if you're going outside the plugs and regular modules. If not then most people should will be able to figure it out.

Also, remember this is not high-priced high-end gear but "nice consumer" which means you cannot expect everything to work perfectly as this simply doesn't happen nowadays. Sad as it may be. Sure there are things there are advertised that don't actually work which obviously sucks but we'll get there as the latest Beta shows (which by the way already works really well for a lot of people but not all).

* I have had things with problems/not working as advertised with 4 iPhones (yeah, the stuff that "always" just work), 1 iPad, 1 LG TV, 1 Samsung TV, 4 Samsung BD players, hundreds of computers both Mac and Windows, my car, printers, AV-links, freezers and hundres of other things. It's the modern world and wrong expectations when paying little but expecting luxury. Suck it up and pay up if you need better stuff. And not even the most expensive stuff works perfectly anyway...

[Guest shapa]

"the 'stable' versions also very unreliable?" they don't really have any stable version.

Stable (in Fibaro guys minds) is just a frozen (at some stage) Beta.

I'd say 90% of users (or may be more) are using betas as they don't have any choice.

Last "stable" is far away to be really stable. More or less - beta quality (in many aspects - Alpha)

[ Added: 2014-09-13, 14:43 ]

Produno

I haven't updated for a long time, and even my so called "stable" version still isn't flawless, still giving me frequent dead nodes, which cause issues with scenes.

+100

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[fergalmccarthy 5]

Produno i'm going back to my Indigo installation, after 6 months and a lot of money invested in Fibaro products because they could be firmware upgradeable, which they don't, all my new devices are downlevel so not sure when that happens. The issues with Fibaro for me is that it has become so unreliable, that I can't trust anything is actually working, just going on assumption. Like the flood sensor, is broken in latest beta, flood sensor alerts but controller never gets notified, so this is a concern, does the smoke alarm do the same ???

Also the fact that the Fibaro guys selectively respond to some users and ignore other posts of people trying to help develop the system really annoys me.

Also my mac mini is a lot more than just HA controller, it records cameras via Sighthound and runs plex for media distribution around the house so the investment is not just in a non upgradable box. What is the upgrade path to wave plus chipset??? the hc3?

[goran 9]

Sadly, I can't recommend it to anyone. The only reason I'm still using it (or trying to use it) is because I spent a lot of money on my Fibaro system.

The major mistake Fibaro makes it that they rather work on new features instead of fixing serious known bugs. This is really a fatal mistake to make for a company that develops software. New features means new bugs. This is true for any software. This is why known bugs must be fixed before new features and new bugs are introduced.

Someone at Fibaro should step up and say "Hold it! Not a single new feature until all known bugs are fixed!". Unfortunately they seem to do the exact opposite. The result is that for every new firmware release we get more bugs, not fewer bugs. Once there is a stable version that works for most users, then, and only then, should the developers work on future major versions. The reason we complain so much about bugs in the beta versions is that we have to run the beta versions, because the "stable" versions simply don't work.

Fibaro should have a real stable branch that they maintain with only bug fixes, not new features. This would make it easy to develop and release small patches in a timely maner. The standard Fibaro reply "it will be fixed in the next major release" is like saying "the bug may be fixed in the next major release in a couple of years, but you will also get 10 new bugs for every bug fixed". It should be obvious to anyone reading this thread and these forums that many users are running out of patience. Many users here are tech oriented and are willing to help. But if noone listens, what's the point?

[Guest Hakanos]

Could someone tell me what is not working? I have all sorts of fibaro modules and working just great my system has:

Danfoss valves

Fibaro motion sensors

Fibaro door sensors

Fibaro univeral sensors

HRT modules

Ip camera's

Æon 4 in 1 modules

Fibaro dimmers

Fibaro RGBW modules

Fibaro switches

Greenwave modules

Netatmo

Hue control

rain sensor

Soil humidity sensor

Sprinkler system

Somfy control via domoticz and RFXcom

Origen scientific wind and rain sensor via domoticz and RFXcom

And all working like a charm with 3.590

I think proper setting up the system is the key to succes. With proper I mean the location of the Hc2 and clever lua programming. The system is not ready to run by any means. You have to make it run, but when it runs it is by far the best system and I tried a few. So instead of bitching here on the forum just spend your time fixing it or just leave. The only thing you can't use is your box with other systems. The rest of the zwave modules or whatever you have are perfectly reusable. So don't tell me that you have spend so much $$$$$$ for nothing.

Why would one need beta???????????? I have my box now for almost 3 years.

[deanrparry 19]

3.590 is not stable!

It is the best release to date! Proven fact ZWave engine is faulty hence the rewrite so I would so NO HC2 probably was not your best purchase!

BUT may become the premium box if Fibaro stop * around with plugins and magic scenes that are pointless!

Get us a nice stable 3.950 rev2 with new zwave engine you can stick the other * up your ass!

its a cake and eat it scenario either nothing works!

or stable most works but the main engine is old and outdated full of bugs! dead nodes!

[goran 9]

Could someone tell me what is not working? I have all sorts of fibaro modules and working just great my system has:

Come on, just read the forums. We're not talking about minor issues here.

If you think your system works well, please get back to us when there is a burglar in hour house but your camera did not take a picture because the Fibaro motion sensor had turned into a temperature sensor in HC2. Or when there is a fire but your Fibaro smoke sensor fail to alarm because it has been marked as dead even though it is well in range. Or when your Fibaro flood sensor gives false readings. And so on.

Fibaro seems to think that it is more important to write some weird smart tv plugin for the next alpha release rather than to fix these kind of issues. This is why we're angry.

[candrea77 26]

Could someone tell me what is not working? I have all sorts of fibaro modules and working just great my system has:

Come on, just read the forums. We're not talking about minor issues here.

If you think your system works well, please get back to us when there is a burglar in hour house but your camera did not take a picture because the Fibaro motion sensor had turned into a temperature sensor in HC2. Or when there is a fire but your Fibaro smoke sensor fail to alarm because it has been marked as dead even though it is well in range. Or when your Fibaro flood sensor gives false readings. And so on.

Fibaro seems to think that it is more important to write some weird smart tv plugin for the next alpha release rather than to fix these kind of issues. This is why we're angry.

The truth lies somewhere in between

3.590 for almost people is stable ...... this means that system not hang and 90% of the functions are working as expected. My system when have instaled 3.590 was almost stable.

But sometime if you use alarm with motion sensor , you can be waked up in the night with alarm breached by no one !!! Smoke sensor that say that your house is burning and so on .....

If you think that you can live with this problem waiting the next stable release .... Fibaro is OK for you.

If you think that you want a fix as it is released, and you want to try beta .... read the forum.

I have no experience with other zwave product ..... but i'm really curious to have a feedback from shapa when he try indigo6 (please shapa if you change to indigo6 think at your old friends in fibaro forum and update us with your feedback)

Thats all ... IMHO

Bye

[sj3fk3 27]

Fibaro seems to think that it is more important to write some weird smart tv plugin for the next alpha release rather than to fix these kind of issues. This is why we're angry.

And *that* is exactly the bases of all criticism I've seen here so far. Personally I think it's fair. No BETA disclaimer can fix that. Of course Fibaro want's to try out new stuff. I as a CTO understand that all to well, but you will have to get your act together before you can do that.

Focus on what go got and make that better, then broaden the scope with new features. The pace in which and organisation is able to simply fix * should always be greater then building new stuff, otherwise you end up with a pile of shitty features.

[OnnoH 1]

And *that* is exactly the bases of all criticism I've seen here so far. Personally I think it's fair. No BETA disclaimer can fix that. Of course Fibaro want's to try out new stuff. I as a CTO understand that all to well, but you will have to get your act together before you can do that.

Focus on what go got and make that better, then broaden the scope with new features. The pace in which and organisation is able to simply fix * should always be greater then building new stuff, otherwise you end up with a pile of shitty features.

hear hear!

[fergalmccarthy 5]

I have to say, of the new devices they announced at CEDIA, the intercom is the only thing that remotely interests me.

Player looks ugly and will never compete with Sonos.

Button looks like a joke toy, whoever came up with that design is probably already fired.

I was interested in Swipe that was announced earlier this year but that seems to have quietly died a death

[Guest shapa]

please shapa if you change to indigo6 think at your old friends in fibaro forum and update us with your feedback)

Thats all ... IMHO

Bye

Sure

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I'll keep watching. May be finally they (Fibaro) will change their behaviour.

Finally, Indigo6 + Mac Mini is so much smarter investment and capable solution. A bit more pricy than HC2, but so many times better.

You can use it like a home file server, XBMC server, SecuritySpy video surveillance (with integration to Indigo6), etc.

Even if you are not an Apple fan, MacOS X is very reliable.

...

Fifth day on Indigo6, everything is extremely reliable.

The only issue I had - very hard to add fibaro door sensors, but it is not uncommon and I had the same issues with HC2 / HCL (something bad in the hardware - pairing process is not polished enough). Finally after quite a few attempts they were added.

After that, they works fine / instantly.

All plugins are also works fine, Sonos integration works like a charm.

Many devices unsupported by Fibaro finally started to work properly - especially scene panels (they are fully supported - all buttons, multiple clicks, etc), 3-in sensors (v3 hardware), etc.

A lot of Fibaro devices badly supported by Fibaro (like smoke / leak sensors) - fully supported by Indigo (it is possible to read temperature, etc)

I'm using quite a lot of plugins: RFXcom (to support Oregon Scientific sensors and LightWaveRF), Netatmo, Sonos, Hue, Pushover (very, very convenient way to send notifications), Vera Bridge (to support z-wave locks - US and EU, in fact I've got two vera's), SQL Logger (writing logs to SQL database - so cool feature), some others. Screenshot is attached.

Still can't believe but everything was configured in 2 days, simply just because it's working exactly the way it should work. Predictable behaviour

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Developers replying in one day (asked them on forum to add timeout setting to the menu for Fibaro motion sensors) - hard to imagine, but they answered in one day and already included this into the next version.

It is simply impossible with Fibaro.

Very basic mobile clients, but from other hand I'm finally able to design fully customised pages with exact information I need to access remotely / from iphone.

Anyway, they (Indigo) promised to release some exciting new iOS client soon (by the end of this year or early next year) and I trust them.

BTW, Indigo supports proper SMTP / mail / push notifications configuration. Fibaro refusing to support that (still continuing to send emails / notifications through their unreliable servers based in Poland) for 2 years (many users asked them to do that. They are not replying at all.)

Learnt forums carefully and realised that those two guys are mostly always in time - not promising a lot, not spending money to make nice adverts, but the only money they earning - is their software solution (Indigo6).

Instead of some lazy employees - those guys owns the business. That's why.

Here is some samples (plugins and page designer):

[ Added: 2014-09-14, 13:31 ]

I have to say, of the new devices they announced at CEDIA, the intercom is the only thing that remotely interests me.

Player looks ugly and will never compete with Sonos.

Button looks like a joke toy, whoever came up with that design is probably already fired.

I was interested in Swipe that was announced earlier this year but that seems to have quietly died a death

AFAIR, they are still showing "swipe" at the Denver event.

May be in a few years....

[ Added: 2014-09-14, 13:47 ]

Some screenshots from SecuritySpy running on the same mac mini (Fibaro will never be able to provide similar functionality - hardware is not capable to do that)

Screenshots removed due to forum rules violation, paragraph IIIe

[fergalmccarthy 5]

The plus side to the basic iOS application is that it loads so much quicker than Fibaro. I'm working on new control pages and going to spend some time this week getting off of HC2 and back to Indigo, which I never should have stopped using. Well I always continued to use it for the AV, as fibaro couldn't do what I wanted it to do. Indigo has better support via plugins for Sonos and Global Cache

[Guest shapa]

The plus side to the basic iOS application is that it loads so much quicker than Fibaro. I'm working on new control pages and going to spend some time this week getting off of HC2 and back to Indigo, which I never should have stopped using. Well I always continued to use it for the AV, as fibaro couldn't do what I wanted it to do. Indigo has better support via plugins for Sonos and Global Cache

Exactly. It is virtually impossible to use Fibaro iOS application on a bad quality links like EDGE / GPRS - simply not working properly, timeouts, etc.

I'm travelling a lot (for business) and in many areas there are no LTE or 3G available, even in the UK..

Therefore, I'm really happy I can design very basic / text HTML pages to control my house from anywhere.

[ Added: 2014-09-14, 14:02 ]

I forgot to say - Z-Wave engine in Indigo6 is much better and seems to be multithreaded from a scratch.

When I'm adding / syncing z-wave devices, all my other devices / scenes / triggers continuing to work (!).

Very unusual after Fibaro HC2 / HCL.

[Produno 15]

Urgh, sounds like I should steer clear of Fibaro for now.

I have 2 months roughly until I need to start buying more gear for my installation (around £8000 worth), so we will see if Fibaro have got their act together by then. If not I will be looking else where. Im starting to wish I had have just took the extra time to hardwire for Loxone.

Im a mechanical/electrical engineer with electrical installation qualifications and have a lot of mates in the trade. The idea was to use my home as a 'test' then go from there and maybe do some local installations. (at least my mates would have been interested in the same setup)

I would look pretty silly if my home ended up a pile of expensive * and not working as expected.

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Hopefully though Fibaro can bring themselves round, it seems a shame to loose a lot of customers because of a few design and decision mistakes.

So, please stop focusing on new products and get this stable release out so I can spend my money with you guys and not have to look elsewhere!!