Controlling 400VAC

[JanJoh 1]

I have a 400VAC heating system, mostly 1000W panels. Had a thought of integrating them into HC2. But finding a relay module suitable for 400VAC appears more then a little tricky.

Sure, i gave some thought to fibaro modules with a small AC/DC converter. But, the sales ban makes me hold of on that thought.

So, any decent ideas?

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[fuuss 25]

You should use relays , that will work fine

[UrSv 6]

Exactly. A relay controlled by an RGBW switch or normal switch is probably the way to go.

[JanJoh 1]

You should use relays , that will work fine

[ Added: 2014-12-19, 10:37 ]

Exactly. A relay controlled by an RGBW switch or normal switch is probably the way to go.

You are missing the problem.

My issue is really to find a Zwave module, compatible with HC2 that etiher accepts 400VAC as input, or to design a cheap and small enough power supply for the module.

Right now something like

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or

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seem like my best bet. (And yes, the first one is my first choise as it at least has basic protection)

[Dalle1985 16]

What exactly is it you want to achieve? I think what they suggest is to take i.e. A normal Fibaro Switch and then hook that up to either 230 VAC or a 24 VDC powersource, then you use the output from the relay to control an extra 400 VAC relay which operates the heatin panels.

Alternatively, you will have to find a relay board which can have multiple low voltage relays controlling your 400V relays.

Neither solution will be cheap, but that would be the way I would go. I'm not sure if the RGBW will function as binary switches, but that would allow you to operate 4 DC (control supply) relays operating the 400VAC.

[ Added: 2014-12-19, 18:21 ]

Ahh okay - you are just looking for a supply source. Then just a cheap 12 or 24 V PSU will make do. I have several ebay 12V power supplies in my house because they are dirt cheap (I have a 180W LED driver costing 11$, the cheapest i could buy in Denmark cost 100$). They work just fine although noise is an issue if you are using noise sensitive devices.

I use 12V to operate a fibaro RGBW and it operates brilliantly. But to drive the 400 V you'd need an auxiliary relay.

[JanJoh 1]

What exactly is it you want to achieve? I think what they suggest is to take i.e. A normal Fibaro Switch and then hook that up to either 230 VAC or a 24 VDC powersource, then you use the output from the relay to control an extra 400 VAC relay which operates the heatin panels.

Alternatively, you will have to find a relay board which can have multiple low voltage relays controlling your 400V relays.

Neither solution will be cheap, but that would be the way I would go. I'm not sure if the RGBW will function as binary switches, but that would allow you to operate 4 DC (control supply) relays operating the 400VAC.

[ Added: 2014-12-19, 18:21 ]

Ahh okay - you are just looking for a supply source. Then just a cheap 12 or 24 V PSU will make do. I have several ebay 12V power supplies in my house because they are dirt cheap (I have a 180W LED driver costing 11$, the cheapest i could buy in Denmark cost 100$). They work just fine although noise is an issue if you are using noise sensitive devices.

I use 12V to operate a fibaro RGBW and it operates brilliantly. But to drive the 400 V you'd need an auxiliary relay.

Ge problem is finding a cheap source that accepts a 400VAC input.

[Dalle1985 16]

Isn't the 400VAC a 3 phase system? Not knowing the swedish power grid, it sounds strange that you have a 1-phase 400 VAC system. If it is based on a 3-phase system, then you should have three wires - 3 for the phases (hence the name) and one for a neutral lead (and a 5th one, the ground, but don't use that one). The voltage between two phases (no matter which two you choose) should be approx 400 V, while the voltage between any phase and the neutral ("nulledningen") should be 230V. So to power your PSU you should just use the neutral and a phase.

[JanJoh 1]

Isn't the 400VAC a 3 phase system? Not knowing the swedish power grid, it sounds strange that you have a 1-phase 400 VAC system. If it is based on a 3-phase system, then you should have three wires - 3 for the phases (hence the name) and one for a neutral lead (and a 5th one, the ground, but don't use that one). The voltage between two phases (no matter which two you choose) should be approx 400 V, while the voltage between any phase and the neutral ("nulledningen") should be 230V. So to power your PSU you should just use the neutral and a phase.

Nah, it is common here to use two phases to get 400v for heating.

So, the heating system just have two phase wires to each radiator. Not even a protective ground given the age of the house.

[petergebruers 1,268]

I thought maybe an autotransformer... 400/230 Volt. I found this

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but it starts at 100VA - that's way too big...

[pepe6859 0]

This is what you need, and it is not expensive at all. Use the fibaro as the dry (24v coil feeder) and the 400v as wet (400v switch). You should easily find it in the local market.

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edit: If you have 220v ac then look for a 220v/400v relay Instead of 24v/400v.

[JanJoh 1]

This is what you need, and it is not expensive at all. Use the fibaro as the dry (24v coil feeder) and the 400v as wet (400v switch). You should easily find it in the local market.

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edit: If you have 220v ac then look for a 220v/400v relay Instead of 24v/400v.

You are still missing the point.

I have ONE source of power which is 400VAC. The Fibaro modules accept up to 240VAC or 24-60VDC if I recall correctly. Most other modules are story picky 240VAC

So, how to power the Zwave module in a cheap and reliable fashion?

I have NO PROBLEM WHAT SO EVER figure out the relay side of things. But, again, that is not the problem.

[rtripa 1]

Try this:

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Rui

[JanJoh 1]

Try this:

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Rui

To large to be of interest, but thanks.

I need something small enough to be able to mount by each radiator in a wife acceptable manner.

[pepe6859 0]

Try this:

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Rui

Ok, now I got it.

You should then be able to find regular 400v ac to 12v, 15v, 18v dc etc... wall transformers right?. Well, I have proved myself that Fibaro relay switches coil ca be fed and work at least with 17.5vdc. This way you can install a stepdown transformer, lets say 400vac - 24vdc and feed the fibaros that will manage as well 24vdc relays coils to cut 400v to devices.

I think this is the path to think about

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[Dalle1985 16]

Isn't the 400VAC a 3 phase system? Not knowing the swedish power grid, it sounds strange that you have a 1-phase 400 VAC system. If it is based on a 3-phase system, then you should have three wires - 3 for the phases (hence the name) and one for a neutral lead (and a 5th one, the ground, but don't use that one). The voltage between two phases (no matter which two you choose) should be approx 400 V, while the voltage between any phase and the neutral ("nulledningen") should be 230V. So to power your PSU you should just use the neutral and a phase.

Nah, it is common here to use two phases to get 400v for heating.

So, the heating system just have two phase wires to each radiator. Not even a protective ground given the age of the house.

Okay, so no neutral wire. Fair enough. Here in DK, you are not allowed to just pull through two phases as a wiring pair and haven't been allowed to do so for many many years.

[ Added: 2014-12-20, 12:47 ]

Try this:

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Rui

Ok, now I got it.

You should then be able to find regular 400v ac to 12v, 15v, 18v dc etc... wall transformers right?. Well, I have proved myself that Fibaro relay switches coil ca be fed and work at least with 17.5vdc. This way you can install a stepdown transformer, lets say 400vac - 24vdc and feed the fibaros that will manage as well 24vdc relays coils to cut 400v to devices.

I think this is the path to think about

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/emoticons/default_icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" />

The issue is the use of 2-phase 400VAC. It is quite unusual, and thus it is very difficult to find any off-the-shelf products which will do that. However it should be possible to find a switch mode power supply which has an acceptable input range up to 400V, but you'll be into industrial applications. We have an offshore installation with a 660V grid and modulation to 24 VDC for control voltage, but because it is for industrial applications, the requirements are higher and thus also the price. A cautious guess would be 500€ at least for a single phase modulator.

[pepe6859 0]

Isn't the 400VAC a 3 phase system? Not knowing the swedish power grid, it sounds strange that you have a 1-phase 400 VAC system. If it is based on a 3-phase system, then you should have three wires - 3 for the phases (hence the name) and one for a neutral lead (and a 5th one, the ground, but don't use that one). The voltage between two phases (no matter which two you choose) should be approx 400 V, while the voltage between any phase and the neutral ("nulledningen") should be 230V. So to power your PSU you should just use the neutral and a phase.

Nah, it is common here to use two phases to get 400v for heating.

So, the heating system just have two phase wires to each radiator. Not even a protective ground given the age of the house.

Okay, so no neutral wire. Fair enough. Here in DK, you are not allowed to just pull through two phases as a wiring pair and haven't been allowed to do so for many many years.

[ Added: 2014-12-20, 12:47 ]

Try this:

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Rui

Ok, now I got it.

You should then be able to find regular 400v ac to 12v, 15v, 18v dc etc... wall transformers right?. Well, I have proved myself that Fibaro relay switches coil ca be fed and work at least with 17.5vdc. This way you can install a stepdown transformer, lets say 400vac - 24vdc and feed the fibaros that will manage as well 24vdc relays coils to cut 400v to devices.

I think this is the path to think about

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/emoticons/default_icon_wink.gif" alt=";-)" />

The issue is the use of 2-phase 400VAC. It is quite unusual, and thus it is very difficult to find any off-the-shelf products which will do that. However it should be possible to find a switch mode power supply which has an acceptable input range up to 400V, but you'll be into industrial applications. We have an offshore installation with a 660V grid and modulation to 24 VDC for control voltage, but because it is for industrial applications, the requirements are higher and thus also the price. A cautious guess would be 500€ at least for a single phase modulator.

Yes, you are in the over-priced industrial field. It would make sense to make your own 400 - 24 house, office or company internal grid if you are thinking to control a lot of things. I will continue researching to see what can I find.

I found this BTW

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[petergebruers 1,268]

If you are adventurous you could try a capacitor in series with the module, and a resistor to limit inrush current. I have done this with a Universal Binary Sensor. Voids Warranty of your module, your house, your heating and all the rest. But great WAF!

[JanJoh 1]

Okay, so no neutral wire. Fair enough. Here in DK, you are not allowed to just pull through two phases as a wiring pair and haven't been allowed to do so for many many years.

Correct. The house dates back from the sixties. Perfectly permissible back then. It has been retrofitted with a ground fault breaker on the heating central in the nineties.

[ Added: 2014-12-20, 14:25 ]

If you are adventurous you could try a capacitor in series with the module, and a resistor to limit inrush current. I have done this with a Universal Binary Sensor. Voids Warranty of your module, your house, your heating and all the rest. But great WAF!

Well, I can see where that could get slightly too exciting if things go awry.

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[ Added: 2014-12-20, 14:26 ]

Isn't the 400VAC a 3 phase system? Not knowing the swedish power grid, it sounds strange that you have a 1-phase 400 VAC system. If it is based on a 3-phase system, then you should have three wires - 3 for the phases (hence the name) and one for a neutral lead (and a 5th one, the ground, but don't use that one). The voltage between two phases (no matter which two you choose) should be approx 400 V, while the voltage between any phase and the neutral ("nulledningen") should be 230V. So to power your PSU you should just use the neutral and a phase.

Nah, it is common here to use two phases to get 400v for heating.

So, the heating system just have two phase wires to each radiator. Not even a protective ground given the age of the house.

Okay, so no neutral wire. Fair enough. Here in DK, you are not allowed to just pull through two phases as a wiring pair and haven't been allowed to do so for many many years.

[ Added: 2014-12-20, 12:47 ]

All I really need is a 1:2 small transformer to give me 200VAC. I thought that would be easy on eBay given the small current needed.

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[speedy 64]

This is how I would do it.

Have not tested this site, it's attached for displaying the sirquit only.

I calculate all my sirquits myself.

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All you need is 2 resistors, dirt cheap and simple.

Add a fuse if you want.

I use this method to drive LEDs on 230v with a diode

*Edit

Then a solution for controlling 400v with a 230v z-wave device:

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Done.

[UrSv 6]

I would build a small PSU using a 400 VAC transformer instead of a 230 VAC transformer. There are several manufacturers of cheap but good transformers for 400 VAC. I'd estimate the total cost for a purpose built PSU at less than EUR 10 a piece. PM me if you need transformer boards for an EI30 transformer. You can get transformers for next to nothing these days.

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