Dimmer 2 and the light started flashing like in a disco

[Mo19 1]

Hi all,

 

We have installed a few Dimmer 2 in a house and just now we received info from the customer that something is wrong with one of them.

 

The transformers are dimmable Osram electronic transformers 105w on which you can see that it supports leading and trailing edge dimmers...

The bulbs are Toshiba 5w dimmable LED bulbs.

 

At first, everything is OK because they work super, no buzzing, no flashing no noise nothing! 

Now, the biggest, so to speak, ciruit with 8 bulbs started o flash like in a disco. At least that is what the customer said... When you dim them to 100% it works OK, but when you start to dimm them they start flashing.... Any idea what may be the problem? The other circuits are 5 and 6 bulbs.... The dimmers are connected to 3 wire electrical system (with N)....

 

Please help... Not sure where is the problem and from where to start?

[Mo19 1]

I forgot to mention something. They said it was working OK but with 1 toshiba led bulb and a few other led bulbs. They replacedd all wih toshiba bulbs and it was still working ok but no additional calibration was made! One of the garden bulbs was not working and they turned the power off to the electrical circuit on which are the garden bulbs and the Dimmer 2. After that, they turned the power back on and the Dimmer 2 made its calibration again (for the first time with all toshiba bulbs) and from there the problems began... Is it something in the settings?

[Cyberhofi 0]

If you have eight bulbs with 5W each you get under the minimum load of your transformer (35W) very quickly.

[noname 0]

I don't understand the part about calibration. Is the Dimmer included in Z-wave network?

Self-Recalibration is only possible when the device is not included in Z-wave network and the power is switched on OR there is a change in physical connection (2W/3W) please fasten the terminals, maybe terminal N is not connected properly. And try to make then a new recalibration.

 

After knowing that, the parameters would be helpfull to diagnose the problem.

[Mo19 1]

Yes, the dimmer is included in HC2 and 

 

Parameter 35 

 

Auto-calibration after power on
This parameter determines the trigger of auto-calibration procedure, e.g. power on, load error, etc.

 

 

is set to:

 

 

Auto-calibration performed after first power on or after each LOAD ERROR alarm (no load, load failure, burnt out bulb), SURGE alarm (Dimmer output overvoltage), OVERCURRENT alarm (Dimmer output overcurrent)

 

 

 

 

So every time when the power is turned back on from the circuit breaker it starts the calibration proces again.

 

Perhaps noname is right, the N is loose and i hope that is the problem and by the time we go there the dimmer is  OK and not burner because of that.... The electrician that made the circuits told me that there is some sort of a problem with the cables and perhaps that is cosing the this flashing... but the strange thing is that it appears now and not before....

 

Some other sugestions, please?

[noname 0]

Ok, so there is something with the circuit that causes one of the three problems. I can only guess that there could be a problem with Overcurrent Alarm, but not sure. Please change this parameter 35 back to default value.

 

After that verify if parameter

30 = automatic

31 = trailing edge

32 = automatic

33 = dimmable

34 = short or long soft start (preferably set long soft start)

 

if there is a problem,

set 30 to trailing edge

32 to dimmable

34 to long soft start

 

and check minimum and maximum brightness level parameter

1 (should be low)

and 2 (probably over 40)

 

But i still think there could be a physical problem with the N lead

[sjauquet 15]

Hello,

I have buy 19 fgd 212 to replace my fgd 211.

I've now replaced 4 of them.

All 4 replaced Dimmer 2 have this rapid disco like blinking problem, once or twice per evening, each at different time.

All lights where working perfectly before with the fgd 211

I use the best quality led bulbs on the market -> Philips Master led dimmable

[noname 0]

sjauquet, i think problem described by Mo19 is different here from Yours. please PM me and i will try to help You with your problem.

[sjauquet 15]

yes indeed, mine do not blink when dimming, but at any time, for no reason.

Sorry.

[Mo19 1]

Thank you noname i will try what you suggested! i will also check the cables and i hope this is the problem! 

 

I will write you on PM if there is no improvement after i check all the cables and the parameters.

 

Thank you once more!

[budda 5]

It would be great if problems were solved publically to share the knowledge rather than over private messaging (PM) ? 

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[Mo19 1]

Yep, and this one is a strange one

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/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> I just returned from the client and the interesting part is that the dimmer was working OK. I replaced it with a new one but still the same effect... they continue to flash... I changed the settings according to the suggestion from noname but nothing.... The strange thing is that the old dimmer (before i replace it with the new one) was showing that the load is NOT dimmable! I tried to change it and to calibrate once more but still it refuse to change...

 

With the new dimmer i started to take out the LED bulbs one by one because i thought that maybe some of them are NOT dimamble and perhaps that is why the dimmer is showing that the load is not dimmable. At the end, i removed 1 led bulb and the flickering stoped! I am not sure is the one that is out is NOT dimmable, but it work perfect! Now they are 7 not 8 LED bulbs which in total are 35W but they work fantastic (at least for a dimmable led bulb) and they do not flash/flicker! But now we have a hole in the ceiling with no bulb

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/emoticons/default_biggrin.png" alt=":D" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> Do not know what will be the effect if they try to put another bulb there but is it possible the problem to be from the transformer or perhpaps the one i removed is NOT dimmable.... Not sure, but if all of them ARE dimmable, why they flash? The transformer is 105W.... Any idea? Still a mistery for me, because if the bulbs are OK and the transformer is OK too, then why when they are 8 - 40W they flicker and when they are 7-35W they are working fantastic

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/emoticons/default_biggrin.png" alt=":D" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> It is so misterious

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[noname 0]

Many of the 12V led bulbs when not explicitly said to be dimmable with trailing or leading edge dimming have problems with constant flickering.

What I can remember,Dimmable Philips master LED 12V (near 10Euro/piece) worked perfectly with transformers.

[sjauquet 15]

It would be great if problems were solved publically to share the knowledge rather than over private messaging (PM) ? 

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problems are not yet solved (for my case at least)

Almost all the work is done remotely on the users box

[Mo19 1]

Ok so 8 bulbs does not work, i changed the Dimmer 2 with a new one and the problem remained! Then i removed 1 bulb and they stoped flickering! But the customer wants 8 not 7!

 

What to do now?!

 

And now he called me that another Dimmer 2 started to flicker. There were 6 LED bulbs (Philips again) and they do the same thing!

 

Where is the problem and how to solve it?! I am not going to spend another 150 euro to go there not able to solve the problem.

 

Come on guys give me some advice that will solve my problem....

[Mo19 1]

Another interesting think. I just searched the web for the Toshiba LED bulbs E-core 5,2W 35 degree angle. Gues what, in the technical details i have found they all are marked as NOT dimmable, in the specifications you can see that the OSRAM transformer is suitable BUT with up to 5 LAMPS! OK, so 5x5.2=30W TOTAL, but on the OSRAM is written 35-105W! Interesting, is not it?!

 

Another thing, on the last page of the technical specifications of the bulbs you can see the following text: * Dimmable on suitable dimmers 

But there is nothing market with * so i can not find what they mean with this since on each model is written: "Dimming No No No"

 

What the.....?!?!?!? The Dimmer with 8 bulbs is flashing, i removed 1 and for now it is working, the Dimmer with 7 started to flicker, only the one with 5 still works (like it says in the manual of the bulbs)........ So much controversial information that i am starting to think is it dimmable or not, becuase the dimmer 2, after another calibration, says that the load is NOT detected to be dimmable.... Even in the technical specifications from Toshiba and on the Web you can not find decent information... some websites mark them AS DIMMABLE!

 

Here is a link with the specifications: 

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Here is a link with the compatible transformers: 

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The Transfomer is OSRAM HALOTRONIC HTM105/230-240

 

I am going to kill myself!

 

Any ideas........

[petergebruers 1,265]

Is 8 bulbs with ordinary switch working? So we can determine if it's a halotronic issue? I think the halotronic can supply enough power to the lamps, but probably it can't start them in a reliable way. That would explain why Toshiba limits the number of lamps to 5.

[hkmod25 0]

I am going to kill myself!

 

Any ideas........

You dont need to do it.

Here ir my explanation of this "mistery":

As we know, an standard halogen spot light can be "dimmed" of the VOLTAGE change (in ideal with en reostat). Or of one or another "power regulator" (in standard case - TRIAC or MOSFET based dimmer unit).

It both cases, halogen light will flickering. But our eyes will not see this behavior...

 

LEDs (as standard) can not be dimmed with VOLTAGE change. So again (as standard), LEDs can not be dimmed with standard TRIAC or MOSFET based dimmer unit.

As standard, LEDs can be dimmed only of CURRENCY change. (NOTE! I am talking here about LEDs at is it, not all this "custom modified light lamps from dif. manufalturers and that sold as "DIMMABLE" items).

 

Back to this Toshiba + OSRAM transformer case. As you have seen, Toshiba said that this lamps is "replasement" for standard (12V) halogen spoot lamps.

With another words, Toshiba just modified an "standard" LEDs lamp to adding an resistor in this unit. The reason for this - get nes. currency for LEDs (I = U/R).

This is also the reason why they written that this lamps are not "DIMMABLE". LEDs (in the lamps) NEED constant currency to work properly...

[Mo19 1]

So you suggest to test them with ordinary switch and to remove some of the LED lamps and just to leave 5 of them as in the manual from Toshiba? 

 

The freaky thing is that they were working and after 2 weeks or more they started to flicker....... I started to hate those LED bulbs, especially when they are "DIMMABLE"!

 

hkmod25 you are saying that the Dimmer 2 is not for this kind of use? It is for trial and leading edge transformers as well as the OSram transformer, so in theory it should work, right? So the only problem are the LED lights again?

[petergebruers 1,265]

So you suggest to test them with ordinary switch and to remove some of the LED lamps and just to leave 5 of them as in the manual from Toshiba?

(...)

I'd first test ordinary switch & 8 lamps. That is the load you would like to *dim*, but it is against the recommendations of Toshiba. So I'd ask the enduser to watch out for flickering, or lamps failing to start. If that doesn't work, you know it's the transformer and it all ends there.

If it does work with switch & 8 lamps... It's not yet guaranteed to work with a dimmer. With 8, you are still going against recommendations and I really don't know how the halotronic interacts with the LED and the dimmer. But it's certainly complex stuff because, for instance, the halotronic limits startup current to enhance halogen life. I'd love to help you, and I really would like to find out. But I can't justify buying a transformer for (legacy) 12 V halogen + 8 Toshiba LED that I'm not going to use

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[hkmod25 0]

 

hkmod25 you are saying that the Dimmer 2 is not for this kind of use? It is for trial and leading edge transformers as well as the OSram transformer, so in theory it should work, right? So the only problem are the LED lights again?

You are correct so long you use "standard" installation: FGD-212 + OSRAM trafo + standard halogen (12V) lamps.

Or (maybe) its will work with this lamps (manufacturer said: can be used as direct replacement, compatible with electronic transformer):

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