FGS222 S1/2 Switch Inputs do not seem to recognise 24vAC?

[dw89 8]

Hi All,

 

I need to be able to activate a FGS222 S1/S2 input with a 24v AC switch and, for some reason, it doesn't work. 

 

I have tested everything working with 240v AC and the switches work fine, but as soon as I change this to 24v AC they stop responding?!

 

I don't get it, I'm doing exactly the same thing i.e. 240v AC to 'L' and 'N', 24v AC to 'IN' and 24v AC to 'S1' or 'S2'. Works with 240v AC for everything but not 24vAC.

 

Any ideas from any gurus (PeterBeG!) would be helpful!

 

KR, Dave:)

 

PS Tested everything with multimeter so I know all's working correct apart from, I guess, the FGS222.

[blawre0000 1]

Power quoted on the manual is 110-240v AC   24-60v DC

[dw89 8]

Sure, but you can change the voltage to 24AC via the input and have it come out the outputs O1 and O2 so if that's the case why not for switching inputs also?

[petergebruers 1,268]

I've got a feeling this might become a long story. Get yourself a coffee.

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There's room for confusion here. When we say 'input' it can mean:

- The "Voltage Input" (Supply) of the module, between L an N

- The Input to the relay (IN terminal), switching the load (via Q1 and/or Q2).

- The "Switch Input", terminal S1 and S2. On the schematic you'll find a switch between "S" and "L"

The supply of the module, L and N, is 110-240 V AC or 24-60 V DC +/- 10 % for the FGS-221 (older double relay) and 110 to 240 V AC for the FGS-222. Notice the DC rating is no longer in the manual of the newer relay.

The "input" (terminal IN) is connected to the "common" of a double relay. Terminals IN, Q1 an Q2 are floating, with respect to the other terminals. There is no connection to any other part of the module. So you can connect them to whatever you want, as long as it is safe and within spec. For instance, you can connect the IN and Q1 to the input of a garage door opener, even if that input is "only" 24 V DC. It's just an example, I'm not saying that it's the only or the best solution.

The Switch input... Well, actually that is not an ordinary voltage sense thingy. All Fibaro modules use a special input to detect if a *switch* is closed or not. If you look at the manuals, you'll notice that the schematic diagrams always depict switches, never anything else (except RGBW, that module has a 0-10V analog input). I have characterized the inputs of a door/window sensor and the dimmers. It is not possible to connect them to 'voltages' ether. I haven't analyzed the relays yet, but I bet they follow the same design principles as the dimmers. This is: they ignore AC voltage on the S wire. Why is that? If you put a switch and some wires in the wall, when the switch is open the wire connected to "S" will inevitably pick up some voltage from nearby conductors. The relay shouldn't react to that. I think that explains, without measuring what is going on, why an AC signal connected to S is not going to do much (but it can be stuck in the "on" position). I think it also explains why you see only switches connected to inputs (in the manuals).

The inputs are not floating, like the relay output. The inputs are connected to the module's circuit and that's connected to the supply. And that's a second reason why a 24 V AC voltage cannot by "simply connected to the relay". If you want to impose a voltage... Your source has 2 wires, right? So one gets connected to S1 but what does the other one get connected to? You choose L or N? If you follow the Fibaro schematic, you might be tempted to connect it to L. If your 24 V device is floating, nothing happens, until you touch your device. You assume it to be save because of the low voltage, but some parts are connected to L so best cause you get a nasty tingle. If you touch it with wet hands, you won't read another post on this forum. Connecting to N should not be done either. "N" must not be confused with "PE" although they appear similar. Anyway, it won't solve your problem, so forget connecting a low voltage device to a Fibaro relay in this way. Now, if your 24 V is not floating, connecting to L or N might produce... fireworks! So I am quite happy that you say that you connected AC to "IN" - because that terminal is floating (if "Q1" and "Q2" are open)... so no fireworks. Potential disaster avoided. But not working either...

The switch inputs do detect if a switch is open or closed, so your problem might be solved by putting the correctly specified relay between your 24 V AC device (output) and the "S" an "L" terminals. So it would act just like a switch. I might be able to point you in the right direction, but can you first tell me a little bit more about that output you want to connect? I'm a bit surprised that it's AC so are you trying to detect the on/off of a device, a power supply for instance? What current (or power) can this output supply? You call it a "24 V AC switch" but I've to admit that I don't know what you mean by that. Maybe you can point to a spec sheet? And maybe a schematic diagram of how you want it all connected?

You see, when someone mentions 24 V and 240 V in one sentence, I can get quite talkative!

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[dw89 8]

Hi Peter,

 

Many thanks for the reply, very informative

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/emoticons/default_icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":-D" />  I didn't go into too much detail to start off with as I just wanted to see if you were about first

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Ok, I will tell you what 1) I am 'trying' to do first, then 2) what I've tried as a test and then 3) what I've learnt from that:

 

1) I have a Mobotix T25 doorstation/camera/keypad/intercom. I need to connect the output relay from that (which works based on any voltage up to 48v DC or AC, with a max current of 2A and max load of 60W) to the 'S1' input of a z-wave module (I chose the FGS222, though I have a spare FGS221 to hand also), which will then turn on the output 'O1' of the relay, which will...in turn, go's to the gate control module's gate relay (which are 'dry' contacts, or must switch to 0v). I have available to me both 240v AC (mains obviously), 24v AC (via a stontronics toroidal inverter) and 24v DC within the gate control module (converts 240v AC to 24v DC).

 

Ultimately, what this achieves is for the gate's to be able to be opened from either a) Fibaro interface b) Mobotix interface c) Hormann gate controls.

 

2) What I was trying with the FGS222 I 'knew' wouldn't solve all my issues (as I know that the gate control relays are dry) but as I had no idea 'what' voltage (ac or dc) would 'switch' 'O1' on via 'S1' I thought I would play around SO I tested the following.....

         i) Full setup from Inverter to Mobotix relay to FGS222 and nothing happened SO...... 

         ii) I then wired up 240v AC (from mains) to a) the FGS222 'L' and 'N' and also fed it to the  'L', 'N' and 'E' of my inverter. I then took the resultant 24v AC output (max 1A) and fed that into 'IN' (for different supply) on the FGS222. I finally hooked up a basic lightswitch (looped from 24v AC from 'IN') to 'COM' and then from the 'L1' (output on 1-way UK lightswitch) to 'S1' on the relay. When I did this nothing happened. i.e. I could detect the voltages of the various wires (all as expected) with a multimeter but 'no cigar' with switching the FGS 'O1' via 'S1'. So

        iii) I then ran the same exact test as ii) above took the inverter out of the equation and used 240v for the lot (i.e. 'L', 'IN' and 'S1') and this worked, correctly switching 240v to 'O1'. So at least I knew it would work.

        iv) I did the same again as iii) above but took out the 'IN' 240v AC supply....it also worked...so 240v AC will switch, via 'S1' to give a dry contact output

 

3) So, at this stage I know that a) FGS222 will switch via 'S1/S2' but currently only with 240v AC (not 24AC). I have not tested any other voltages/phase yet. b) I don't 'really' get why it won't switch with 24v as it was via a 'standard' lightswitch.

 

My thought, at this stage, as I believe you said, was possibly to continue as is but, instead of a 'lightswitch' use another relay to take the 24v AC (from the inverter), or indeed 24v DC (which I can take from gate control panel) and then switch it back to 240v AC to 'switch' 'S1'. At this stage that was all I could think of.

 

So, if we used gate control's 24v DC instead it would be 24v DC to Mobotix relay, then out to 'new' relay, which converts to 240v AC and then on to 'S1' of FGS222 which then supplies dry contact output to gate control relay. Therefore it's either 24v AC to 240v AC relay or 24v DC to 240v AC relay. 

 

Of course, unless, you can think of a more elegant solution? 

 

Kindest regards, David

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[petergebruers 1,268]

I think I get it. Tomorrow, I'll do a few extra measurements on S1, I think we need to know how it works to understand everything. Or just because it is fun to know. Your circuits are indeed designed as 24 V (low voltage, < 50 V) to protect the user (and also to avoid trouble with moisture). Therefore, any solution must keep a VERY good separation between those circuits (creepage and clearance distance) to avoid potential electrocution...

[dw89 8]

I totally agree;) My knowledge is ok but my testing only goes as far as basic multimeter etc, I don't have an oscilloscope or anything like that so any info you could glean would be very much appreciated!

Kindest regards, David

[petergebruers 1,268]

Small problem: I only have a FGS-221. Anyway, that one can be triggered with 12 V AC minimum (measured between N and S1). That is, at room temperature. But you were talking of 24 V AC so that should work. Apart from the fact , that you must not connect a "extra low voltage circuit" (meaning < 50 V AC) to N or L or even PE (protective earth), in any case... I'll see if I can get hold of a FGS-222...

Regarding a solution... It's a bit preliminary but I've got a feeling that you will need one or two (ordinary) relays. Do you have any space left?

Edit: changed wording for clarity.

[dw89 8]

Hey Peter,

 

Sorry its taken a while to reply!

 

I hear what you say, there's always the possibility I have wired something wrong (I was doing lots of tests). Would you be good enough to share a quick wiring diagram of your test?

 

In my situation I have 240v to 'L' and 'N', 24v to 'IN' and 24v to 'S1', the only thing is that (not using 24v that often) I have a 'L' and a 'N' for that. So I was only using the 'L' to 'IN' and 'S1'. Not sure if that's an issue or not to be honest.

 

All your help greatly appreciated.

 

KR, Dave:)

[petergebruers 1,268]

Hi! I'm on holiday, but I haven't forgotten... it's an intriguing question, that has had a few variants on this forum. I'd like to skip the test setup, if yuo don't mind. It involves a safety transformer and a variable safety transformer and when done wrong could lead to personal injury. I'm also awaiting delivery of a FGS-222. I'll be back

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[dw89 8]

No problem Peter, enjoy your holiday!!

 

I've not had time to play with any of it recently but I will try again at weekend I hope (or tomorrow if I can find some time!).

 

KR, David

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[dw89 8]

Hi Peter, 

 

Hope you are enjoying your hols!

 

Just thought I would give a quick update. I 'believe' I am wiring this wrong but am unsure how. If you take the 240v 'L' and 'N' out of the equation and just think about the 24v 'supply' only then I think this is where I must be going wrong because I am blowing fuses on the 24v Output from the inverter.

 

I have, on the inverter output, a 'L' and a 'N' which, when tested with a multimeter, show @27-28v AC. I am simply connecting them as follows:

 

'L' goes from the 24v Inverter output to the 'L1' input of my basic household light-switch, then, from the 'COMMON' output of the household light switch the cable comes out, goes into 'S1' of the FGS222 and then out of it and into 'N' on the inverter, thereby completing the circuit. I'm not sure how else to wire it because without completing the circuit you don't get the 24v output. As soon as I turn on the switch it's blowing the fuse on the inverter and not switching the 'S1' input on the FGS222.

 

I believe there must be some link between the 'supply' to the FGS222 and the 'S1/S2' inputs as I can't think why I'm having an issue with this when, when I used 240v AC alone, it all worked fine.

 

Any advice appreciated.

 

KR, David

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[petergebruers 1,268]

I'm sorry, but I am upset now! I have tried to convey the message, that a 24 V circuit cannot, should not, must not be connected to 230 V, be it N or L or any other wire. Your 24 V supply output, wether it be a transformer, inverter, switching regulator, battery, whatever, does not go to L, N or any other related wire of your mains. Not to S of the module either because that too references mains. If you do connect a part of your 24 V circuit (videophone, wireless router, light bulb, door opener) then you are lucky if a fuse blows. This event is telling you it is not good. The other options are: fire, destruction of electronic parts, electrocution or death.

I am not certain, from your explanation, whether you have done such a thing. A full schematic diagram would help.

I will tell you how to do it in a safe way (later). I can be held responsible for the consequences of my advise. So I have to be careful. I still need to look up some details

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[petergebruers 1,268]

I'm back from vacation. I've done some research but before I can draw a schematic, I would like to have a reference to (or a pdf of) the specs of your "stontronics toroidal inverter" and "gate control module". I want to make sure that that everything is 100% compatible.

[dw89 8]

Hi Peter, don't worry, either I don't understand the way this relay works (on basis of what I was told) or I've not conveyed what I was doing correctly.

No 240 should have crossed paths if it works as I've been told. Will chat more tomorrow.

KR, Dave;)

[petergebruers 1,268]

Hi Peter, don't worry, either I don't understand the way this relay works (on basis of what I was told) or I've not conveyed what I was doing correctly.

No 240 should have crossed paths if it works as I've been told. Will chat more tomorrow.

KR, Dave;)

Hello Dave! Indeed, mayby some detail got wrong and now you and/or me are on the wrong track. I certainly may have misunderstood something, I know THAT has happened to me before

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Anyway, when I reread my two last posts, I find myself pedantic, for stressing again the importance of the separation of the circuits. But I had a reason and I should have mentioned that. It was not directly aimed at you. It was meant for all casual topic readers that think "hey, that problem sounds familiar, let's read this topic *diagonally*". But when it gets long, they might forget, or skip the earlier safety warnings. My apologies, for not explaining this...

I have drawn a schematic. I shows the way I would solve the first part of your question. The first part is: "I need to connect my Mobotix to a FGS-222 relay". The second part is: and I want to control my door opener. I'm going to ignore that, and use a light bulb for testing instead. Seems simpler to me.

I selected components

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I have no strong opinion about them, I ordered a few times from them and they seemed to be professional, good packaging and all.

Feel free to search for alternatives, but please bear in mind the key specs. And in this case it's all about safety.

On the schematic, you'll find, from left to right:

A) The entry of mains voltage (230 V). The wires are labeled N and L but not all countries have this setup. For completeness, they could be labelled L1 and L2 instead. This makes no difference for this schematic, but you shouldn't assume you can always make this substitution. The wires you use, should have a diameter appropriate for the circuit breaker (breaker C20 means 2.5 mm2)

The next part has alternatives, B or C.

B-1) Since you mentioned you already have a transformer, I suppose it is this type: a safety (isolation) transformer, 230 V primary to 24 AC secondary (no DC converter), with a power rating of 5 VA minimum, to power the relay. I say "230 V" for European countries, if you live elsewhere see

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B-2) If there is no sign of temperature or overload protection on your transformer, a 200mA glass fuse (20 mm fuse, to be bought separately) and a fuse holder with wires (Conrad 532983 - 89) must be added. Otherwise overloading or shorting the transofmer can melt the transformer (or worse).

C) If you don't have a transformer yet, Conrad sells a DIN rail mountable transformer that has temperature protection and a fuse built in (540754 - 89).

D) The next part is a low voltage switch. In your case, it is a relay in a Mobotix modules. Nothing special there.

E) The switch connects to a relay. A connection from the relay back to the transformer closes the circuit. It's a "Finder 49.61.8.024.0060 Relay Interface Module 1 changeover contact 24 Vac". This relay has to keep the circuits separated, so it is important to note this in the spec: "Insulation between coil and contacts: 6 kV - distance 8 mm". This will ensure that moisture, dust, pollution won't cause excessive leakage between the two circuits. See Conrad 502843 - 89 for downloadble info.

All wires in the 24 V circuit must be at least 0.5mm2. All wires, if they are stranded, should have wire ferrules or get lightly tinned ends. Single isolation 24 V wires should be kept away from wires carrying mains.

Hyperlinks to products:

Fuse holder:

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Transformer:

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Relay:

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Please also check if the law in your country allows you (the reader) to do this kind of installation work.

Click on the schematic diagram:

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[dw89 8]

Hey Peter,

Will reply in detail tomorrow but just to say, looking at your diagram, that's exactly (literally) what I had planned! Different equipment but same end.

My 'test' problem however still bugs me so I will check out your post in detail tomorrow and reply back;)

KR, Dave

[petergebruers 1,268]

That's good news! So we are getting back on (the same) track track then! If you ever have the slightest doubts about the safety or the specifications of the equipment, or if you have any remarks regarding my selection of devices, please tell me!

 

Now you are probably keen on knowing why my input voltage measurements are different. Now that I've published a solution, I don't mind publishing the schematic of my tests. The equipment needed to do the tests isn't exotic, but unless you repaired TV sets in the previous century or are an "AC power equipment guy", you probably don't have it. But maybe the schematic diagram can clear things up.

 

Note that working with AC voltages can be lethal.

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[dw89 8]

Hi Peter,

 

Sorry I seem to be really pushed for time atm (hopefully I will get 'some' time tomorrow to really look at this) however thanks very much for your detailed replies.

 

What I would say is you were correct in what I was doing i.e. I took Mobotix out of the equation and wanted to test prove a voltage (24v AC) would activate 'O1' output via 'S1' input on FGS222. My problem was that, if I used 240v throughout for my test, it worked successfully, if I used 24v AC (from my transformer I had to hand) it did not. I have had tried various things which had not, for whatever reason, been successful. So, before I buy anything else, my transformer (used for test) can be viewed here:

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I have the T4215AD, single AC 24v Output. As you can see from the schematic it has two glass 20mm fuses, one for 240v input and one for the 24v AC output. Now, if we go back to your original detailed schematic (first recent one), you have used a separate DIN relay (quite a nice one I must admit, and one I will probably use for the end installation) which has a live and neutral connection for the coil within it and live for the relay itself. I have, for reasons of my test, put in it's place, a simple lightswitch so, imagine as follows (diagram tomorrow):

 

1) 240v AC (L,N & E) supply to transformer

2) 24v AC (L&N) Output from transformer to 

3) Single UK Lightswitch on to

4) Input (S1) of FGS222.

 

If we concentrate on the output from 2) above to connection all the way to 4). Can this be tested with a lightswitch in place of the extra DIN relay or not? If so, how wired? I just want to see what I'm doing wrong.

 

Also, in your schematic with DIN relay you have (assuming without checking all specs) that it's a 24v AC coil with a 'what' relay output to 'S1' on FGS. 

 

Kindest regards

 

Dave

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PS I only ask rather than show immediately so as not to influence you by what I've done (as it seems to me I've done it correctly anyway by what I'm looking at!). Still if you can show me a simple transformer to lightswitch to FGS222 schematic then I will be able to show you immediately what/where I am getting it wrong perhaps!