FGD211 Dimmer EU - Lights blinking / Flickering

[Kime 0]

Hello,

 

I have a question about my dimmers, i have 5 dimmers in my house.

All connected in 3-wire setting and all have 5 X 50Watt spots connected. So no LEDS or low watt lights connected

 

if i put the dimmer at 100% everything is normal.

 

if i put them below 90% the blink from time to time.

 

the bizarre thing about this is that all dimmers blink at the same time...

so if i put 2 lights on, the 2 blink at the same time at the same freq. the same happens with a 5 dimmers.

 

Anybody any thoughts ?

 

 

 

[Igy 23]

Are you sure that you are talking about FGD211 and not about FGD212 model? I have FGD211 model and its pretty solid with regular spot lights. However Im experiencing all type of issues with FGD212.

[Kime 0]

Yes i'm sure. See the printscreen

 

I keep finding it wierd that all lights with different dimmer blink at the same time.

 

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[petergebruers 1,265]

If they blink at the same time it is almost certainly a response to something on your main supply. Could be the swithing of heavy equipment, for instance. Or the power company switching transformers. To measure that, you need special equipment. No other lamps flicker at the same time?

[Kime 0]

Nope. Nothing at all.

Just the lights that are not at 100% flicker together. Lights without dimmer dont flicker, lights with a traditional dimmer dont flicker.

Only the lights on a fibaro dimmer in less then 100% mode flicker.

[Kime 0]

Flicker is Maybe to the correct description. Its when they are at 80% the move to 75% to 85%.. Looks like a hartbeat ritme for 10secs...

Then it stops... Looking in the control center nothing is moving...

[Mr Jack 10]

The flickering is caused by a high frequency signal (TF signaal) put on the mains to for example turn on or off street lights and let energy meters switch from day to night or weekend tarrif.

Due to that frequency, the dimmers see more zero crossings, and as it is controlling the light level based on the zero crossings, you get the flickering of your lights.

Thats why all dimmers give the same effect at the same time.   

[petergebruers 1,265]

The flickering is caused by a high frequency signal (TF signaal) put on the mains to for example turn on or off street lights and let energy meters switch from day to night or weekend tarrif.

Due to that frequency, the dimmers see more zero crossings, and as it is controlling the light level based on the zero crossings, you get the flickering of your lights.

Thats why all dimmers give the same effect at the same time.

I agree with you but there is one odd thing... I'm in Belgium too. And I have 7 "old" dimmers, never saw a 10 sec period. Maybe it depends on where you are (frequencies differ). Maybe it's because I'm in an area with "smart meters" where they don't use that kind of signaling anymore. I've researched this a few times and it would seem that in the Netherlands they use different frequencies, I'd say it's often reported from the Netherlands.

Here's some background, only in dutch:

CAB signaal:

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It would be interesting to know if "Dimmer 2" would work better for user "Kime". I own two of these, connected to "Philips Warm Glow" lamps, and it's OK. But because the old dimmer doesn't bother me I'm not proving anything here...

You could try a "Philips Warm Glow" LED but only if you have "bypass 1" connected to the dimmer, because the LED will glow a bit when the dimmer is off.

[Mr Jack 10]

I agree with you but there is one odd thing... I'm in Belgium too. And I have 7 "old" dimmers, never saw a 10 sec period. Maybe it depends on where you are (frequencies differ). Maybe it's because I'm in an area with "smart meters" where they don't use that kind of signaling anymore. I've researched this a few times and it would seem that in the Netherlands they use different frequencies, I'd say it's often reported from the Netherlands.

Here's some background, only in dutch:

CAB signaal:

Please login or register to see this link.

It would be interesting to know if "Dimmer 2" would work better for user "Kime". I own two of these, connected to "Philips Warm Glow" lamps, and it's OK. But because the old dimmer doesn't bother me I'm not proving anything here...

You could try a "Philips Warm Glow" LED but only if you have "bypass 1" connected to the dimmer, because the LED will glow a bit when the dimmer is off.

 

Dimmer 2 has the same problem.

I had two manual operated old dimmers, and never had a problem.

As I just started with home automation, and I ordered 2 z-wave dimmers from brand Q.....(because they should work better with LED lights) and my living room turned into a disco at specific times.

Had a direct discussion with their Tech Support but they didn't had a solution to solve this.

Returned them to the dealer and ordered two fibaro dimmers 2. But they have the same behaviour.

I have seen several topics from Belgium, specific in the Antwerp area where they have the same issue.

You are correct that in different regions different frequencies are used.

I am also in an area with Smart meters, but the signal is still there. It is also used to turn on and off the street light.

It seem that, if the frequency is X time 50Hz you will not have this problem

The 7 old dimmers, what brand are these?

I am still searching for z-wave dimmers with a CAB filter, but I am afraid that they don't exist.

[DrNik 0]

 

Dimmer 2 has the same problem.

I had two manual operated old dimmers, and never had a problem.

As I just started with home automation, and I ordered 2 z-wave dimmers from brand Q.....(because they should work better with LED lights) and my living room turned into a disco at specific times.

Had a direct discussion with their Tech Support but they didn't had a solution to solve this.

Returned them to the dealer and ordered two fibaro dimmers 2. But they have the same behaviour.

I have seen several topics from Belgium, specific in the Antwerp area where they have the same issue.

You are correct that in different regions different frequencies are used.

I am also in an area with Smart meters, but the signal is still there. It is also used to turn on and off the street light.

It seem that, if the frequency is X time 50Hz you will not have this problem

The 7 old dimmers, what brand are these?

I am still searching for z-wave dimmers with a CAB filter, but I am afraid that they don't exist.

 

 

Hi all,

 

I'm upgrading my dimmers to Z-Wave coming from an old X-10 system. Both Fibaro and Q.... have this flickering effect. (and both the 211 and 212 dimmers exhibit this). I'm located to the north of Antwerp, so perhaps it's a very regional thing?

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I can actually pick up a hum in home cinema speakers when it happens sometimes (and all dimmed lights synchronously go up and down). Seems to start getting worse around 10pm and continues every so often throughout the evening.

 

Should anyone have any clue how to avoid / filter this, that'd be *much* appreciated...

thanks!!

Nik.

[petergebruers 1,265]

Because the "flickering" isn't always at the same time, and not always lasts for several seconds but can be much shorter, I have speculated that it isn't only the CAB signal, but also the switching of transformer stations, to control power and voltage. I was able to record a "disturbance" on an oscilloscope and it wasn't the expected "wavy signal" on top of the base sine. It was a phase (frequency) instability on the grid. So the voltage is clean and doesn't change, the sine is clean and doesn't get "wavy", but the frequency briefly deviates from 50 Hz. On screen, it looks like the sine wave compresses and expands over a period of 1-2 seconds. We're talking about a few %. Usually it happens between 22 h and 1 h and I see no pattern to it (these events occur during daytime too, but I didn't try to catch one). That's when the dimmer seems to dim up or down, and in some cases even completely switches on or off. After 1-2 seconds, all is back to normal.

I have both dimmer FGD-212 V3.2 and V3.3 and I think the newer one is on the same level as "Dimmer 1", but the V 3.2 is more sensitive to disturbances.

They only alternative solution that I know of is switching to a 12 V or 24 V DC system, then use the Fibaro RGBW controller. Of course, you need the space to mount the power supply. And you need to find a way to convert your light fixtures to accept different lamps, so I wouldn't call it an alternative. On the other hand, the DC power supply is guaranteed to filter out the disturbances and it is a lot of fun to have RGB(W) LED strips.

[Cubes 1]

Afraid I'm in the same boat here (Antwerp area) and the oscillating is getting incredibly annoying with no apparent way of fixing it

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My dimmers are all 3.2. Peter, when you say that 3.3 is on the same level as dimmer 1, does that imply it doesn't have the oscillating effect?

[petergebruers 1,265]

Afraid I'm in the same boat here (Antwerp area) and the oscillating is getting incredibly annoying with no apparent way of fixing it

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My dimmers are all 3.2. Peter, when you say that 3.3 is on the same level as dimmer 1, does that imply it doesn't have the oscillating effect?

I live near Brussels. The switch to smart meters was long before I got my FGD212.

Let me put it this way: I have 9 W Philips Warm Glow in the TV room, on a FGD212 V 3.3. I installed it... I don't remember, has to be weeks ago! My family members didn't notice any flickering. But I did. It is not annoying. With the previous version of the FGD212, it could/would distract you from watching TV. I think I occasionally see a "blip" because I am still a bit "conditioned" to monitor this. When I first noticed the phenomenon, I wanted to catch the waveform on my oscilloscope. But I don't have deep memory on my Fluke 124. So I was always on the lookout, to push a button on my camera. I don't watch TV a lot anyway...

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I can't find it, but at least one user reported that V 3.3 did not bring an improvement. But other users came to the same conclusion as me: if it's there, it's not annoying. There may be many different causes!

In the same room I used to have an FGD211 and never really thought it had any blinking or flickering. But now, when I really pay attention (to my other FGD211), I can tell they don't blink or flicker, but of course voltage is not 100% constant and *that* is noticeable with halogen lamps.

[Cubes 1]

One occurance is definitely the switch between daytime and evening rates at 22.00h where the flickering lasts about 30 seconds. But plenty more wavy/flickering periods later in the evening.

 

Isn't there some sort of device which filters those signals that I could place directly behind the fuses?

[Kime 0]

I'm in the Antwerp region as well and indeed after 22 its the worst.

But why do i only have it on the z-wave dimmers? I have normal dimmers upstars they dont flicker.

[simonk1969 0]

I've just had an issue with flickering lights on the landing(FGD211 V2.2, LEDs with Bypass) when the lights where switched on in boys bedroom(FGD212 V3.2, LEDs with Bypass 2), as soon as you turn the bedroom lights off the landing lights stop flashing.  I forced the FGD212 to do a recalibration but that didn't fix it, so I lowered the maximum brightness on the FGD212 in the boys bedroom via Configuration page and that seems to have fixed it.

[Mr Jack 10]

I'm in the Antwerp region as well and indeed after 22 its the worst.

But why do i only have it on the z-wave dimmers? I have normal dimmers upstars they dont flicker.

Most normal dimmers have a LC filter build-in. That's also the reason that they are much larger then the z-wave dimmers.

I asume that these LC filters, filter a lot of the CAB or TF signals. My old traditional rather cheap dimmers didn't had this problem.  

I've involved a few people that I know to see if I can get more detailed information on the so called CAB filters that for example Niko is putting in their specifications.

It would be interresting to find out which frequencies are used in the different regions. That might also explain why not everybody is facing this issue.

[Kime 0]

Did anyone find a solution to this? it's bugging me more and more.
Isn't there a way to filter these out when the electricity enters the hous

[Mr Jack 10]

@petergebruers Hi Peter,

 

I have opened one of my old manual dimmers, and as expected it's a very simple dimmer, with an LC circuit.

With these old dimmers I didn't had the issue with the flickering of the light related to the CAB of TF signals.

I am thinking about adding the LC circuit to the fibaro dimmer, although space will be an issue.

This is the circuit of the dimmer, and what I have in mind.

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What do you think. is it worth trying. 

 

 

 

[petergebruers 1,265]

Hi! The old dimmers used a TRIAC as an active element. It causes a very sharp rise in current (and voltage depending on the impedance of the circuit). This then causes radio frequency interference (LW and MW bands) radiated via your wiring. So these old dimmers certainly had a coil and a capacitor to filter (dampen) that interference. The frequency of the filter is much higher than that of the CAB signals, so I really doubt that it would make any difference. But if you want to test it , go ahead. I have used dimmer 2 with such a coil (100 uH) and with higher capacitance (470 nF) and the active element it can drive that load (without causing alarms or harming the dimmer)...

[Mr Jack 10]

Thx Peter,

I still need to order a dimmer. Then I will do a test before installing it.