Thoughts on 100+ Dimmer 2 devices?

[George Basco 1]

I'm thinking about installing Dimmer 2 devices on all my switches.  This would come to over 100 devices.   Before I take the teap, wanted to see if anyone has comments about the potential pitfalls of doing this.

 

The things that might be a concern include

• Basic technical limitations in such a setup.
• Expected failure rate.  How many will fail per year?
• Expected lifepsan of the devices, either because of failure or obsolescence.   When should I expect to need to do full replacement?
• Anything else I should be worried about?

 

Thanks!

Edited November 28, 2017 by George Basco

[Igy 23]

in bulletpoints my point of view:

• 100+ quite an interesting installation
• Failure rate, in my case (20+ dimmers installed) so far no faulty one (I had few welded relay switches, but dimmers are OK) for more than 3 years (of course started with dimmer1 version). 
• No limitation in terms of zwave network, only tech limitations of devices itself - max 250W per dimmer, neutral wire not needed, but its ok to have it. 
• Lifespan in terms of obsolescence, it depends on expectations and adoption of new technologies in your case. Zwave is most used and adopted protocol and do far was backwards compatible zwave -> zwave plus ->... So until you don't replace the controller with some other non zwave compatible controller, it should last for ages.
• one small remark to take into account: selfconsumption of such a instalation will be +100Watts (each module has <1,3W).  

[petergebruers 1,265]

I am unsure about you'r background, but judging by your previous post you have a technical background. But I'll try to make my answer readable for all users anyway.

 

I have about 50 mains operated modules, most of them 5 years old. Failures: none. Welded contacts on "relay switches generation 1": a few occasions, but by fixing the load, problem solved!

Expected life: nothing specified... Pure speculation. The modules contain a small SMPS so the lifespan limiting factor might be the primary electrolytic capacitor. Failure rates increase with age and temperature. It is complete guesswork for an end-user like me, but I'd say they last 10-20 years. I have LED supplies that died after 3 years. I have some Panasonic devices (based o SMPS) from around 2000 that are still OK. It is hard to predict. Maybe Fibaro did some ageing tests (they probably did) and then did some statistical analysis... but I have not seen anything published.

Dimmer 2 (and probably all Fibaro modules) contain a surge protecting device. It protects the SMPS against voltage spikes, not overvoltage. So it will work with some noise on your supply. Mains power always has transients that do not cause issues with mechanical switches, but they can destroy electronic switches. But please do not connect it to 400 V (3 phase error). Over-voltage might be part by your insurance... I see you are in the states, that problem is unlikely to happen because I think you cannot have more than 2 x 110 V. Please tell me if I'm wrong.

Dimmer 2 also detects overload, thermal issues, voltage spikes due to inductive loads, and inrush current... In all cases it will turn off the load and report to the controller. Dimmer 2 might refuse to turn on certain loads, for example, high inrush current (highly capacitive) loads. For instance: I've tested a 12 V DC power supply rated at 60 W (non dimmable supply for LED strip) because I wanted to find out. The manufacturer stats "Inrush : 60 A" and the dimmer detects this and will not turn on such a power supply. This might surprise you, but I think it is a good thing. It is better than destroying itself... It is based on MOSFET, not TRIAC, so it can shutdown itself. I would not say it is 100% shortcut proof, I have not tested it to destruction. But I attempted to "grossly overload" one and it and it still works.

I expect... you'll have to buy some "bypass 2" because some load types (especially low power LEDs) won't work well without it! This adds to the cost and you need extra space.

Dimmer 2 does not start without a load. This might confuse you, because relays do not care about the load. Solution: use "bypass 2".

You might have trouble running of UPS or generator, because the dimmer needs accurate and stable frequency. A relay does not have this problem.

In some cases, noise or signals on mains can cause (extra) flicker. Judging by the number of reports on this forum, firmware 3.5 has addressed this or it has reduced the problem a lot. But it is a regional thing (I do not have it). I have no clue how well Dimmer 2 works in the USA... It also depends on the load. So I suspect some users still have issues, it also depends on your expectations. If you pay close attention, lamps on a switch also sometimes flicker. The dimmer is not a "regulator". You might want to setup a test and investigate alternatives, like LED strips + RGBW or Philips Hue if it does not meet your expectations.

 

Dimmer 2 can work in 2-wire setup aka "without a neutral" but it behaves somewhat differently, because the load and the dimmer "steal power". It limits the dimming range and you'd probably need a "Bypass 2". I highly recommend to setup a test if you have never tried 2-wire setup.

 

Finally, I'd read through the manuals of "Dimmer 2"and "Switch 2" because of the difference in configuration options.

Does this help?

[George Basco 1]

Thanks!  These comments are all very helpful..

 

On the power front, I just measured a Dimmer 2 and I'm only seeing 5.0mA in the on-state and 5.2mA in the off-state.  This is at 120VAC (US), so better than expected and very reasonable.

 

I'll be using 3-wire config everywhere, but do expect to need some bypass elements.  Most of the lighting will not need bypass, already tested.

 

I do have some low wattage bulbs that won't turn off completely, and if I decide to use those I'll need a bypass.  I mentioned this in a separate thread, but this seems like a bug that could be fixed given my 3-wire configuration.

 

In terms of flicker, I have seen those comments, but so far I haven't seen anything like that with any bulbs tested.  So hopefully this is not something that will crop up later.

 

No plans for UPS or generator at this point, but hadn't thought about that as a potential issue if I decide to go that route later.

 

Thanks again for your help.  And Peter, I hope Fibaro is compensating you for all the support you provide to their customers!

 

 

[Al3x 2]

On 28/11/2017 at 6:14 PM, George Basco said:

I'm thinking about installing Dimmer 2 devices on all my switches.  This would come to over 100 devices.   Before I take the teap, wanted to see if anyone has comments about the potential pitfalls of doing this.

 

The things that might be a concern include

• Basic technical limitations in such a setup.
• Expected failure rate.  How many will fail per year?
• Expected lifepsan of the devices, either because of failure or obsolescence.   When should I expect to need to do full replacement?
• Anything else I should be worried about?

 

Thanks!

failure depends on many factors mainly the conditions and usage. if this is an business/enterprise environment i would expect around 40% failure.The biggest issue i have is LED fittings and the power boost they require when initial start up when you have several of them all linked together. the Dimmer DOES NOT LIKE IT!!!

 

the biggest issue you will have is the delay, with that many devices with lighting i would suggest you use multiple controllers to speed it up and not HC2, use something that uses Zwave plus and its only purpose is light control. 

[petergebruers 1,265]

 

1 hour ago, Al3x said:

failure depends on many factors mainly the conditions and usage.

 

Absolutely! Good point!

 

I assumed the OP wanted to know about the viability of 100 dimmers connected to "supported" and "good quality loads" connected to "a fairly good power source" but that is not really always so... Also, maybe he wants to run a generator for backup instead of the usual grid that is "in spec". Dimmer 2 depends on frequency stability so that might not work well, it has been discussed here a few times.

 

Dimmer 2 contains components to mitigate the effect of surges, but "surges" is not like "over-voltage", surges are short in duration. Over-voltage will kill any electronics device.

 

One issue with LED lamps is inrush current. It is a tough subject, but I'll post some reference for background below.

 

1 hour ago, Al3x said:

i would expect around 40% failure.

 

Could you explain... This has to be a misunderstanding... 

 

Please login or register to see this link.

 

This is an honest question! I want to understand what you mean by that 40 % number.

 

1 hour ago, Al3x said:

the Dimmer DOES NOT LIKE IT!!!

 

Can you define "does not like"?

 

If you mean... the dimmer is SO WELL PROTECTED it does not want to turn on a BAD LOAD - in order not to cause overheating or catastrophic failure... I agree! But that is a good think, is it not?

 

Or do you mean... 40 % of your "Dimmer 2" got somehow destroyed? I have tortured mine (overload, short circuit, inductive load - all out of spec!) and they still work... So I am genuinely surprised. I own 4 of them. And a bunch of "Dimmer 1" but that one does not have all those protections...

 

If dimmer 2 refuses to turn on a load, you might be tempted to use a relay instead... Then you might be in for a really bad surprise!

 

 

Try it on one of those circuits, but it might permanently damage your relay! Dimmer 2 will report "over-current" in such cases. 

 

If you really want to turn on/off "nasty" loads.......

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2018 by petergebruers