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chelomrc

supports the HC2 to more than 70 Wall plug?

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Hi, I need to connect 50 wall plugs and 10 other devices to the HC2 to control consumption in real time, do you know if HC2 support this quantity of devices? 

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26 minutes ago, chelomrc said:

Hi, I need to connect 50 wall plugs and 10 other devices to the HC2 to control consumption in real time, do you know if HC2 support this quantity of devices? 

hc2 can connect about 250 devices

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1 hour ago, chelomrc said:

in real time

 

What is your definition of real time? To save bandwith, the plug does not report every change. It kind of "filters" power events and a few parameters influence that filtering. I cannot explain it better than the comments in the manual, under "parameters". It is kind of tricky. You can find the manual(s) at:

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  • 22 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

     

    What is your definition of real time? To save bandwith, the plug does not report every change. It kind of "filters" power events and a few parameters influence that filtering. I cannot explain it better than the comments in the manual, under "parameters". It is kind of tricky. You can find the manual(s) at:

    Please login or register to see this link.

    I understand what you told me, I already reviewed the manual, thank you very much.
    But I have another question, Is it possible to generate an alert by email when the load decreases considerably? Sorry, my english is not too good.

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    25 minutes ago, chelomrc said:

    I already reviewed the manual

    That is awesome! I am glad you did. ;-)

     

    26 minutes ago, chelomrc said:

    Is it possible to generate an alert by email when the load decreases considerably?

    If you are new to Lua programming,  I would say... yes, but you'll have to learn the language and understand what events are and how to send mail. Or hope someone has a read-to-use script to share. I did a quick search and I do not think so... I do not have ready made code for you, I do not run such a scene...

     

    Basically, you can start a scene when "power consumption *changes*" so you'll probably have to store the previous value, possible record the time, then when it changes apply your definition of "when it decreases significantly". Maybe you also want to record the last time you sent a message, to avoid sending too many mails (in case anything goes wrong).

     

    Some loads have a pulsed character, like "2 seconds off - 4 seconds on" and this might complicate matters...

     

    Also, 60 devices is "a fairly large network" and you might have to be careful with reporting, polling en sending commands. Also understanding how "Z-Wave mesh networking" works might be needed. I am being a bit cautious: it is possible with too much reporting you get delays and it might not work at all. You can do a test with 10 devices, but here is the bad news: it is hard to predict what happens if you increase the number of devices. It is not lineair. I would say: less than 20 devices never problems (unless you write really bad code). Between 20 - 50 devices: reporting can be an issue and you might notice delays (of several seconds). Between 50 - 100 devices thinks get tricky, it is possible to overload the network and get 10-30 second delays or packet loss. above 100 devices, things sometimes get weird, and you really have to monitor what is going on... I have > 100 devices, been using Z-Wave for about 5 years. I monitor this forum, that is where those numbers come from.

     

    I am sorry if I underestimate you, maybe you already know all this, I do not want to insult you... I see you are new here and so I do not know you at all.

     

    Here is a script that contains many of the concepts I mention, though it is not a complete solution. But it might get you started writing some code.

     

     

     

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    1 hour ago, petergebruers said:

    That is awesome! I am glad you did. ;-)

     

     

     

    +1 for sarcasm :)

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    Not sarcasm, I very, very rarely use sarcasm, it is not my style and I do not think it works well on forums.

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    26 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

    Not sarcasm, I very, very rarely use sarcasm, it is not my style and I do not think it works well on forums.

    and i am proud i witnessed it :)

     

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    2 minutes ago, akatar said:

    and i am proud i witnessed it :)

    If you think it is sarcasm, I apologize, because it is not intentional.

     

    Please tell me how I can avoid this misunderstanding in the future. Should I omit the smiley? Use another smiley? Should I not have thanked the OP for reading the manual?

     

    I think I have tried, but I have failed, since you still do not seem to believe me. You seem to think I am sarcastic, and also a dishonest person, because you do not accept my explanation.

     

    I respect the OP. You see, in that long post I said:

     

    2 hours ago, petergebruers said:

     

    I am sorry if I underestimate you, maybe you already know all this, I do not want to insult you... I see you are new here and so I do not know you at all.

     

    I really mean that... I would not say that if I did not respect the OP. I am an end-user, trying to help. I do not put myself above another user. I am only sharing my knowledge.

     

    Again, if it shows lack of respect, I apologize.

     

    Really, @chelomrc, I am glad you read the manual. I wanted to try to help. I was not trying to be sarcastic at all. If it sounds like I do not respect you, by being sarcastic, like @akatar suggests... This is not my intention. I am really not that kind of guy, you can read my 3000 other posts!

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    Just now, petergebruers said:

    If you think it is sarcasm, I apologize, because it is not intentional.

     

    Please tell me how I can avoid this misunderstanding in the future. Should I omit the smiley? Use another smiley? Should I not have thanked the OP for reading the manual?

     

    I think I have tried, but I have failed, since you still do not seem to believe me. You seem to think I am sarcastic, and also a dishonest person, because you do not accept my explanation.

     

     

    well. you missed the smiley i placed right after my comment.

    that means i did not mean it.

     

     

    hereby i apologize for my incorrect behavoir. i can insure you it will not happen again.

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    14 hours ago, akatar said:

     

    hereby i apologize for my incorrect behavoir. i can insure you it will not happen again.

     

    I don't believe you :P

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  • 23 hours ago, petergebruers said:

    That is awesome! I am glad you did. ;-)

     

    If you are new to Lua programming,  I would say... yes, but you'll have to learn the language and understand what events are and how to send mail. Or hope someone has a read-to-use script to share. I did a quick search and I do not think so... I do not have ready made code for you, I do not run such a scene...

     

    Basically, you can start a scene when "power consumption *changes*" so you'll probably have to store the previous value, possible record the time, then when it changes apply your definition of "when it decreases significantly". Maybe you also want to record the last time you sent a message, to avoid sending too many mails (in case anything goes wrong).

     

    Some loads have a pulsed character, like "2 seconds off - 4 seconds on" and this might complicate matters...

     

    Also, 60 devices is "a fairly large network" and you might have to be careful with reporting, polling en sending commands. Also understanding how "Z-Wave mesh networking" works might be needed. I am being a bit cautious: it is possible with too much reporting you get delays and it might not work at all. You can do a test with 10 devices, but here is the bad news: it is hard to predict what happens if you increase the number of devices. It is not lineair. I would say: less than 20 devices never problems (unless you write really bad code). Between 20 - 50 devices: reporting can be an issue and you might notice delays (of several seconds). Between 50 - 100 devices thinks get tricky, it is possible to overload the network and get 10-30 second delays or packet loss. above 100 devices, things sometimes get weird, and you really have to monitor what is going on... I have > 100 devices, been using Z-Wave for about 5 years. I monitor this forum, that is where those numbers come from.

     

    I am sorry if I underestimate you, maybe you already know all this, I do not want to insult you... I see you are new here and so I do not know you at all.

     

    Here is a script that contains many of the concepts I mention, though it is not a complete solution. But it might get you started writing some code.

     

     

     

     

    Thanks for the information, it's what I was looking to know.

     

    Taking your advice into account I can divide the devices into 3 groups, with one HC2 for every 20 devices, now my question is whether the Fibaro program handles each HC2 independently or can show me the information of all without having to log in each device to be able to visualize it.

     

    And about if is or not sarcasm, don`t worry, thank you a lot.

     

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    Hi! I'll tell you upfront I have all my devices in a "cube" about 10 m x 10 m x 15 m so my network is very compact. About half of them is mains-powered so this about the same number as you would like to install. But unfortunately, it is difficult to extrapolate.

     

    I do not have experience with multiple HC2' s but I do have some background and I can explain why I have not much to gain by installing a 2nd HC2.

     

    There are 2 ways to add a controller:

    • as a "secondary controller" (secondary *static* controller to be more precise) which is a Z-Wave thing and is not Fibaro-specific.
    • as a "gateway" which is a Fibaro-only thing.

    Based on my own experience, and reports from other users, I'd stay away from "secondary controller". As the name implies, it adds a controller to an existing Z-Wave network. All devices can talk to both controllers, which seems a good thing, but there are a lot of issues with that concept (for instance: most devices can only report to one controller...). Because devices in a single network can use IDs 1 to 232, with 1 reserved for the first controller and another ID for the second, you can have a maximum of 230 devices. Not many people have reported about his kind of concept, but I'd say "it rarely meets your expectations".

     

    Here is a quote in an unrelated topic:

     

    On 8/15/2017 at 7:22 PM, tinman said:

    Regards secondary controller, yes, you can add HC2 or HCL to HC2 controlled zwave network, you will get devices replicated as well, and yes, some zwave plus devices will not work after that properly. With zwave devices no issues, tested a ton of devices and always same situation, it worked. I spoke with Fibaro, but they have not fixed it yet. One have to understand them, they have implemented it as this is mandatory function and must work in order to get gateway certified, they did what required.  Now years later, the replication is bit broken with some zwave plus devices, and honestly Fibaro must not fix that (even so, they promised to work on that). In the meantime i recognized, that the reason is right after replication, the affected modules not getting the id change of the controller, so they trying to talk to the old primary right after it has been removed, i though i could investigate what need to be done here (one could use CIT or even better any other zwave stick - added as secondary to HC2, zwave.me sticks are working very good - with latest sigma designs zwave pc controller software to send specific command to let them recognize the change of controller, if someone wish to play with that, i have all the necessary tools), but due to lack of time for low priority things i stopped it (having maybe total 10 customers in last 2 years asked for migration to different controller, where most hardware is working, was not necessary to spend lot of resources on this).

     

    That post is a year old... But I tried more recently and I would still say... stay away from "secondary controller"

     

    I do not have any experience with the other concept, "gateway connection"

     

    It is a completely different beast. All controllers have their own Z-Wave network. So 2 x HC has a theoretical maximum of 2 x 231 devices. Also, they can be geographically separate. The setup uses the concepts of "master" and "slave". As far as I understand it, it is still not 100% transparent though. A HCL might be an option, but it can only be a slave.

     

    Here is a recent topic about it:

     

     

    Would this increase the reliability if your setup? Tough question!

     

    Z-Wave has multiple channels, but the way they operate is a bit complex (and the word "channel" can mean different things depending on context. Sometimes they mean RF but sometimes they talk about "supported speed and protocol"). This is an over-simplification but nevertheless I'd say it is useful to know. If you have two controllers, with a bunch of the devices on them, they still operate in the same frequency band. So although maybe the networks may seem separate they still interfere (causing collisions and retransmissions). It depends on the location of transmitters and receivers.

     

    Also, each Z-Wave acts as a mesh network... When you have two separate networks (gateway setup) then you have two mesh networks. Is this good or bad? Hard to say! I am speculating, there is some optimum size for a mesh based on the thickness off the walls, device type (generation), spatial layout. Consider an extreme case: one controller has 57 mains devices, the other has 3. If the small network has a lot of distance to cover, the mesh is too small.

     

    Also, you add a layer of complexity (replication of data, management).

     

    Unfortunately , because gateway controllers have their own Z-Wave network, you cannot simply move devices between the physical networks. Its "exclude and include".

     

    On the other hand... If you "search" on this forum not many issues turn up. It is definitely being used, and Fibaro installer/resellers should have at least made a test setup once.

     

    In conclusion, I'd say, in all honesty... I cannot answer your question. One has to know its own limitations! I have zero experience with HC master/slave setups, and how they affect performance!

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  • 8 hours ago, petergebruers said:

    Hi! I'll tell you upfront I have all my devices in a "cube" about 10 m x 10 m x 15 m so my network is very compact. About half of them is mains-powered so this about the same number as you would like to install. But unfortunately, it is difficult to extrapolate.

     

    I do not have experience with multiple HC2' s but I do have some background and I can explain why I have not much to gain by installing a 2nd HC2.

     

    There are 2 ways to add a controller:

    • as a "secondary controller" (secondary *static* controller to be more precise) which is a Z-Wave thing and is not Fibaro-specific.
    • as a "gateway" which is a Fibaro-only thing.

    Based on my own experience, and reports from other users, I'd stay away from "secondary controller". As the name implies, it adds a controller to an existing Z-Wave network. All devices can talk to both controllers, which seems a good thing, but there are a lot of issues with that concept (for instance: most devices can only report to one controller...). Because devices in a single network can use IDs 1 to 232, with 1 reserved for the first controller and another ID for the second, you can have a maximum of 230 devices. Not many people have reported about his kind of concept, but I'd say "it rarely meets your expectations".

     

    Here is a quote in an unrelated topic:

     

     

    That post is a year old... But I tried more recently and I would still say... stay away from "secondary controller"

     

    I do not have any experience with the other concept, "gateway connection"

     

    It is a completely different beast. All controllers have their own Z-Wave network. So 2 x HC has a theoretical maximum of 2 x 231 devices. Also, they can be geographically separate. The setup uses the concepts of "master" and "slave". As far as I understand it, it is still not 100% transparent though. A HCL might be an option, but it can only be a slave.

     

    Here is a recent topic about it:

     

     

    Would this increase the reliability if your setup? Tough question!

     

    Z-Wave has multiple channels, but the way they operate is a bit complex (and the word "channel" can mean different things depending on context. Sometimes they mean RF but sometimes they talk about "supported speed and protocol"). This is an over-simplification but nevertheless I'd say it is useful to know. If you have two controllers, with a bunch of the devices on them, they still operate in the same frequency band. So although maybe the networks may seem separate they still interfere (causing collisions and retransmissions). It depends on the location of transmitters and receivers.

     

    Also, each Z-Wave acts as a mesh network... When you have two separate networks (gateway setup) then you have two mesh networks. Is this good or bad? Hard to say! I am speculating, there is some optimum size for a mesh based on the thickness off the walls, device type (generation), spatial layout. Consider an extreme case: one controller has 57 mains devices, the other has 3. If the small network has a lot of distance to cover, the mesh is too small.

     

    Also, you add a layer of complexity (replication of data, management).

     

    Unfortunately , because gateway controllers have their own Z-Wave network, you cannot simply move devices between the physical networks. Its "exclude and include".

     

    On the other hand... If you "search" on this forum not many issues turn up. It is definitely being used, and Fibaro installer/resellers should have at least made a test setup once.

     

    In conclusion, I'd say, in all honesty... I cannot answer your question. One has to know its own limitations! I have zero experience with HC master/slave setups, and how they affect performance!

     

    Thank you very much for your time, I was just looking for someone to tell me if he has any experience working with that number of devices. I understand perfectly what you want to explain to me about the channels, bandwidths, mesh networks and collisions that may arise, I did not have time to introduce myself since they are rushing me to present this project. I'm Marcelo Rodríguez from Bolivia, I'm an Electronic Engineer by profession, exactly my thesis was in Home Automation with Zigbee, I have studied and I know Zigbee networks in depth, but what I do not have is experience specifically with Fibaro and his HC2, I'm opting for work with Fibaro because it seems to me that it is one of the most important brands in domotization today, or am I wrong? what other brand could become more stable than Fibaro? do you know any?

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    On 5/28/2018 at 5:54 PM, chelomrc said:

    I'm Marcelo Rodríguez from Bolivia, I'm an Electronic Engineer by profession, exactly my thesis was in Home Automation with Zigbee

    Welcome! Interesting topic, Zigbee!

     

    I really should write a longer bio, but my device list is on my profile page

     

    Please login or register to see this link.

     

    On 5/28/2018 at 5:54 PM, chelomrc said:

    Fibaro because it seems to me that it is one of the most important brands in domotization today, or am I wrong? what other brand could become more stable than Fibaro? do you know any?

     

    I had to think long about an answer... I've been monitoring  this forum since 2012 but I'm following other forums as well. But the bulk of my modules are manufactured by Fibaro. I might suffer from confirmation bias.

     

    Still... I am reluctant to answer that question, because although I think I can share a fair bit of facts, it still would be primarily *opinion based*

     

    Around 2010 I got interested in Home Automation. I live in a house in a small city, it was build in 1958. So when a few switches started failing, I thought about automation. For me key points were reliability (on different levels) and the possibility to mount the modules behind the existing switches.

     

    So now I have al these modules, I'm kind of reluctant to change anything. This does not mean I am blind to other solutions, I like to toy with MCUs so I am not a noob when people talk about WiFi or BLE + MQTT or COAP. I have 2 LORA modules on my bench, but I have not yet found the time to connect them! I own a few Sonoff devices, but I do not use their "ecosystem", I flash them with my own code. They are "hacker friendly". So it is not about replacing Z-Wave, it is for fun and maybe to solve one particular problem (*)

     

    If there is one thing many people would probably agree upon: IoT is in flux and will be for many years to come!

     

    Until last year, Z-Wave docs were unavailable and the SDK was expensive for an end-user. Now it is free. Will this attract manufacturers? Will it make Z-Wave more popular? I do not know.

     

    (*) To solve a very weird issue known as "Phantom menace (RGBW)"

     

     

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