WHY DOES 4.4 STILL NOT WORK AFTER ALMOST A YEAR????

[oajungen 5]

I have 10 HC's installed since december 2018. Have had a very trouble some (scripting the HC to max for 10 mintunes when heating is necessary) winter concerning heating because the HC's don't open / close the valve when needed. Hopefully installed 4.4 a week ago and started heating today….. IT STILL DOESN'T WORK! Valves stay closed until I put the requested temp more than 1.5C above the measured temp with the temp probe.

 

What is happening and why is Fibaro not able to solve this problem.

I want to help with sending log files, but Fibaro please make clear what is going wrong!!!

 

Not using any of the adapters!

 

I want my money back to buy thermostats which does work!

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[wienog 107]

They just don't work. Actually they do nothing....

1) The intervals for reading the temperature of the added temperature sensor are way too long: up to several hours 

2) Self-regulating is non-existent: if the temperature is different from the setpoint, the valves just do...nothing.

 

I wrote my own heating script per room and let the HC2 set the valve to 10 ° C if the setpoint temperature is reached and to 30 ° C when the roomtemperature is below the setpoint. That is the only way I can use them: as simple on/off valves.

Certainly no publicity for Fibaro !

[samuelAN 1]

Sorry to see that...

 

my 3 valves have now 1 year, and has never been used , they are in a drawer. My dealer has already accepted to take back the valves and give back my money. The 4.4 update is the very last chance for fibaro to make this device work. 

 

I will wait some user experiences with 4.4 to decide if I send them back... but given the number of issues (battery drain, heating algorithm,...) I am not very confident with this new version..

 

The alternative I am looking for is the popp valves..

 

Good luck , I hope that the issues will be resolved..

[Bezan 2]

Is there any update regarding not working Fibaro Heating controller?

Last year I tried using them on all radiators but returned after few weeks.

 

1. It was keeping valve open even when temperature was WAY above desired one set in HC2 - like 2-3C and more.

2. Some of them during temperature change were opening and closing in loop.

3. Manual temperature change was not working. Only going from normal temperature to maximum or OFF resulted in valve reaction after few seconds.

 

I would like to install some of heating controllers but maybeSpirit Z-Wave+ or  DANFOSS Z-WAVE LIVING CONNECT 014G0013 is better choice?

 

[oajungen 5]

Any update from mister Fibaro about this ongoing issue?

It is way to quiet in here!

[tinman 1,070]

On ‎8‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 8:18 PM, oajungen said:

Valves stay closed until I put the requested temp more than 1.5C above the measured temp with the temp probe.

 

out of curiosity, what do you expect, 0.1°, 0.5°, 1.0° ?

[oajungen 5]

To be honest, no real clue. But I am not a specialist in this matter. But pure from a logical point of view a little open when the requested temp is almost reached and radiator is hot, more open when radiator is cold. When difference is bigger more open, etc., etc.

[wienog 107]

12 hours ago, tinman said:

out of curiosity, what do you expect, 0.1°, 0.5°, 1.0° ?

 Well, at least 0,5 °, which is the step the settings can be changed with. More than that and you will start having inhabitants of your house telling you it feels 'cold' or 'warm'.

Fact is that the valves do not react before the difference is at least 1,5 ° and sometimes not even at much higher differences, both in the direction of the temperature getting way above the setpoint and , the other way around, the temperature getting way below the setpoint.

I don't know the interval which the valve compares temperatures between actual temp and setpoint. But I can tell you that , even with 4.4 and trying to let the FGT do his job, I had to intervene manually, either by opening the valve manually or by changing the setpoint through the HC2.

 

As a matter of fact, it's not my problem anymore. I bought the Honeywell Evohome system which has an unofficial API to communicate with HC2 and that API , I heard, has just become an official part of the honeywell system, so let's see what that can do.

Edited September 12, 2018 by wienog

[tinman 1,070]

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 11:46 PM, oajungen said:

To be honest, no real clue.

 

so when you don't know, why you think FW4.4 is not working? 4.3 was already working for most customers, 4.4 (as far i was able to test with prepared cold room for few days). For sure as someone who works more or less for Fibaro, one could think that i would always protect Fibaro, but simply search my topics / messages, and you will see that i'm definitely too "loud", and that's for reason - we, as company and Fibaro partner, wish to provide to OUR customers only things that works - because WE losing money when they don't - not Fibaro.

 

Quote

But pure from a logical point of view a little open when the requested temp is almost reached and radiator is hot, more open when radiator is cold. When difference is bigger more open, etc., etc.

 

in principle yes, mechanical head can work like that. But as soon some piece of electronic (or even thermal mechanical) regulation is built-in, things goes more complex. Every company is trying to develop "even more" advanced algorithms, to be more attractive for customers.

 

When you wish only to open radiator by specific angle, i recommend Eurotronic Spirit. Yes, it does have as well advanced blah blah blah regulation, but one can switch it off and control only the open angle, nothing more. Unfortunately it does not works with Fibaro HCx, as there is no way to send (without deep hacks, each every time new firmware has been released ) custom / manufacturer specific commands. Afaik you can use zway (with e.g. razberry), Homee Gateway, and probably others (haven't tested that).

 

Fibaro Heat Controller does not have such possibility, it will always take "water in" and "air outside" - and when available "external sensor" temperature and calculate based on temp changes in last hours, room, water in changes, and previously taken/used data to calculate best possible way to heat up/down. 

 

Sometimes i wish things could just work, without any voodoo inside, but todays technology is like that. One can't buy anymore such simple made cars like 67s V8 Mustang, average car have now more transistors than Luke's Skywalker lightsaber. Advanced technology can be sometimes *abuse*, the 4.0 Fibaro Heat Controller was buggy, but that's the learning curve. Soon fw 4.5 will be available, with some extras requested by customers/installers, so things can only get better.

But as i said above, when you don't think the built-in regulation is what you looking for, take different gateway and Eurotronic Spirit.  

 

[oajungen 5]

It is not working because the HC's doesn't keep the house on a stable and comfortable temperature. This is something you may expect from an expensive solution as the Fibaro HC. Doesn't sound very strange considering expectations does it?

 

I have no clue how Fibaro should solve this issue, that's what I tried to make clear. It is their problem, they should solve it. I am not looking for an on or off solution. I want a solution which keeps temperature at a comfortable level in each room independently.

 

As I understood from Peter 4.4 firmware still doesn't included the external temp probe in the right way into the calculations. So that might cause strange behaviour from a temperature perspective because I am using probes for every HC and do expect the probes are "true" for the moment heating is necessary or isn't in a specific room. This is the way Fibaro advertised it should work…. but it still doesn't.

 

Fibaro should solve this soon! 

Edited September 13, 2018 by oajungen

[tinman 1,070]

so let me summarize, you wish to feel comfortable but you have no clue how to achieve that?

ok, understood - really. I for my part changed my heating system from radiator to underfloor heating, and i'm happy with it now.

 

1 hour ago, oajungen said:

Fibaro should solve this soon! 

 

Nobody will solve things for you, if you don't feel / think that Fibaro Heat Controller is working for you, send it back and try different product.
Maybe it's the product, maybe just you, maybe only imaginary problem because you have heard that something is not working.

 

[oajungen 5]

Meaby you should stop with re-using  the words I am using in a way you like to read. With your attitude your involvement with Fibaro is undeniable clear as you already wrote yourself.

 

A thermostat which isn't able to supply a steady room temperature is of course a user issue according to you? I am very clad you didn't install my configuration.

 

Great help! Thank you.

[petergebruers 1,268]

9 hours ago, oajungen said:

As I understood from Peter 4.4 firmware still doesn't included the external temp probe in the right way into the calculations

It is a good thing you want talk about this!

 

Those are not exactly my words, but I understand what you are saying! It is more accurate to say: the external probe does not replace the head sensor...

 

What is "the right way"?  Quite a few people expect the FGT to open/close based on a simple comparison: if setpoint > "external temp probe" then "open valve". If not, "close valve" and that is not exactly how it works. You are not alone! It does not work that way at all. And if you expect this behavior, the FGT will disappoint you. This is certainly not your fault, nobody ever posted anything about how this "external probe" works. Fibaro does not allow me to discuss this on the forum, because they don't want to disclose details of the algorithm. If you want to discuss this with me in private, send me a PM! I'll send you some graphs, if you want that...

 

I think knowing a bit about this algorithm is key to understand why the TRV does not meet your expectations, while it works for other people. I say "works" but to be honest, like @tinman I have not done many experiments because the (outdoor) temperature is still rather high where I live.But  those first tests tell me, the TRV "controls the room temperature" but I cannot say how fast nor how accurate it is. I make no bold claims until I get enough data!

 

In December 2017 I started this topic:

 

 

Because of issues with 4.0 and 4.3 I was unable to post "part 2". Now 4.4 has been released, but I still do not have enough data to post an evaluation. This is frustrating, for me, because this BLE probe differentiates the FGT from competing products (Spirit TRV can accept input from a Z-Wave device, but there are some requirements to be met and I do not know how their algorithm works. You might want to get the details before you buy).

 

5 hours ago, oajungen said:

With your attitude your involvement with Fibaro is undeniable clear as you already wrote yourself

 

You said that in response to tinman.

 

To be clear, I am an end-user, I do not work for Fibaro. I do not make money by selling stuff, software or advice. I bought my 2 FGTs myself, they are not beta and they are not samples.

 

Here is my opinion. I think @tinman is highly skilled, very technical, but also skeptical (of Fibaro and of every other manufacturer), and always trying to help. He is one of the good guys on the forum. He's got feedback from a very large group of customers and not only about the FGT but also of competing brands. BTW he does not need a defense from me, he is an authority on his own!

 

On 8/31/2018 at 8:18 PM, oajungen said:

Valves stay closed until I put the requested temp more than 1.5C above the measured temp with the temp probe.

 

I had a look at the logs you have posted, and they show a small opening with your first 2 tests (0.5 and 1.0 °C) and your 1.5 °C test sets the TRV to 50%. You did not let it run after that, so I cannot tell if the room temperature would have changed. So maybe you can try, for example to set it + 1.0 °C higher than room temperature but let it run for 2 to 4 hours, then we can discuss how well it controls room temperature. In your room, in your house, with your heating system...

 

Those blackbox logs are very useful, they should/can/will confirm what you experience!

 

And if you want to discuss the algorithm with me in private, send me a PM! It is not about convincing you "how good it is". It is all about explaining how it works right now (and in the foreseeable future), and if it works the way you WANT it to work. Because if it does not meet your expectations, you'll remain a very unhappy customer.

 

6 hours ago, oajungen said:

A thermostat which isn't able to supply a steady room temperature is of course a user issue according to you?

 

Wait, wait wait!

 

I think this topic started with a slightly different claim: "the valve does not open when I change the setpoint". 

 

I am not calling you a liar! In fact, I never call anybody a liar! The blackbox logs show a small opening with your first 2 tests (0.5 and 1.0 °C) and your 1.5 °C test set TRV to 50%. Only the last one would have made significant noise and it would show a rapid temperature increase of the radiator. If you had downloaded the logs 10 minutes later, we would have had an additional datapoint... But that is OK.

 

This is not the same as: "the thermostat does not control room temperature".

 

Here is MY PERSONAL definition of "control room temperature": If the TRV can keep the room temperature, as measured by the external probe, to +/- 1.0 °C of my setpoint, then I think it is good. Also, if it can raise the temperature by 1 tot 2 degrees within 1/2 to 1 hour, provided my radiator and heating system is capable of doing that (it depends on factors like outdoor temp, radiator size, sunshine, total demand for heat, boiler capabilities, pump speed, TRV preset, ...).

 

I cannot tell, yet, if the FGT meets my expectations. I need more data.

 

What are your expectations? If you tell them, I *might* be able to say if this is possible or not (with my limited experience with 4.4). Last time we discussed this in private, you more or less told me the same as in post #1, you expected it to open the valve (not sure what "open" means in your opinion, is it 1% or 10% - or 50 % as you observed?) as soon as you added 0.5 to the temp measured by the external probe. That is not going to work.

 

You can trust me on one thing though: if this product does not meet your expectations, and you can explain why (which you actually already did, by posting a question in post #1) then you are entitled to say it is not OK for you. If you want a refund based on those expectations not being met, then I support your claim. Although Fibaro never said "the FGT will open the TRV if setpoint is 0.5 above temp external probe" I see no point in trying to force a product upon you, which makes you unhappy.

 

@wienog had the same expectations as you (about opening the valve), I talked to him about the FGT in great detail (in private) and he decided the FGT is not for him... Maybe you can ask him why he decided to go with "Evohome" instead.

 

If you can define, with some numbers, what (I quote) "A thermostat which isn't able to supply a steady room temperature" means, then show some blackbox logs... Then you have a strong case that it does not control room temperature the way you want. Because otherwise, I think, "what can be claimed without proof can be dismissed without proof".

 

Again, if you want to discuss the algorithm with me in private, send me a PM! It is not about convincing you. On the contrary, you will understand why it does not work the way that you want!

[oajungen 5]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for explaining!

 

It might be in my wording "open te valves". What I mean with these words, I would expect the radiator to get warmer or colder when I think it is necessary to reach a comfortable heating. Not hot only when a small raise in temperature is needed, but also do not stay cold in that matter. So it is not a question of opening or closing the valve, it is about reaching and keeping a comfortable temperature in the rooms in a controlled way.

 

I know it has been a limited test, but with the log files I uploaded the radiator kept completely cold till I changed it to 1,5C difference. I would expect the radiator to get warmer with a smaller offset temp (+0,5C or less ?). I assume the HC knows when hot water is going into the radiator with the temp sensors available? So it should know how much it should open the valve to get hot water stream into the radiator? The small opening wasn't enough in my case clearly, but the HC should "learn" this behaviour and open the valve till hot water goes into the radiator? In my system I do have two radiators left (in the bathrooms) without TRV. The taps of these radiators are almost closed. I did this on purpose to make sure "rest heat" is distributed into the system when all TRV are "closed" and the boiler is still burning. When I do another test I will close them completely to see wat happens.

 

Next test will take some time firstly because I am on holiday till the end of the month, but secondly temperatures are rather high in the Netherlands as in Belgium I suppose?

If heating is done and I can do some more testing, I will upload more log files to be analysed. Thank you for your support! To be honest I would expect this kind of support from Fibaro. I made a call with support with the same logfiles, but they don't give any reasonable response. This doesn't really help with keeping the frustration under control and I really don't understand the way Fibaro is dealing with the forum and support in this matter. They are way to silent.

 

I really would like to understand the possibilities of the HC's to see if I can make it work in my system, but I have limited possibilities in changing the system and it will be really difficult to install a TRV/HC in the bathrooms unfortunately because of limited space available. I will sent you a PM.

 

About the discussion with Tinman. 

I have seen he has a lot of positive feedback on the forum, but I really don't like to be quoted in the way he did in his last two posts. That's what I tried to make clear in my previous post. I am open for discussions and trying to / help with solve (my) issues together with everyone, but not in this way. If in the end the HC's aren't my cup of thee, I am going to switch to another system. But up to now I hope Fibaro / I are able to make it work.

 

My first post and the bold letters are only there because I do have the feeling Fibaro isn't acting in the right way to there customers in this matter. Not giving any reasonable reaction on questions and logfiles as an example. 

[petergebruers 1,268]

Excellent post, @oajungen , and I see you have send me a PM. As promised, I'll continue the discussion there and maybe come back here later, to address some of your points in public!

[mortyre 0]

Hello whats is the new since Mid September ? No new test ?

 

Do you think that Firmware 4.4 is OK and the regulation is ok (I would expect the radiator to get warmer or colder when I think it is necessary to reach a comfortable heating) ?

[petergebruers 1,268]

17 minutes ago, mortyre said:

Do you think that Firmware 4.4 is OK and the regulation is ok (I would expect the radiator to get warmer or colder when I think it is necessary to reach a comfortable heating) ?

 

The problem with heating systems is that they are very diverse, people have different expectations, different types of boiler control, ...

 

On top of that, "water based systems" are VERY hard to diagnose, there is the lack of tools, lack of knowledge, probably missing information...

 

I've been working with a group of about 20 users for about a year, solely debating the FGT. Always via private messaging, to be able to speak more freely. As you can see, I started a PM with @oajungen and @tinman is also part of that group.

 

I think none of them is ready to answer your question, even after spending so much time debating all this stuff.

 

I am NOT going to answer your question, because I cannot do that... I do not know what you have, what you want and what you know.

 

I can tell you how it behaves in my house, I have 3 of them and soon 4, so you might be able to deduce that I am quite happy with them. But that is in MY house with MY expectations, so do not make any assumption based on this statement...

 

I can give you a bit of guidance... Keep in mind that updating the FGT requires a HomeCenter. And this FGT does not do "boiler control", if you want that, the FGT is not for you.

 

You might think... Why is Peter not telling the whole story? That's because it is very complex and life is too short. And I am not ready to share what I know.

[mortyre 0]

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- do these Fibaro valves correctly regulate the temperature to 0.5° ?

- Is the external temperature sensor working properly?

- Does not the valve make too much noise?

- Does the battery hold the charge?

 

 

Thank you

[petergebruers 1,268]

39 minutes ago, mortyre said:

- do these Fibaro valves correctly regulate the temperature to 0.5° ?

In my house... Yes, about 0.5 but to be honest I would say "better than my LCs"... Other users say "no".

 

An important factor in MY house is the availability of the external probe. I have a post about the reason why I wanted that... You want me to find it?

 

For me, the external probe is the deciding factor, and I cannot tell anything about the FGTs performance without one.

 

Positioning of the probe affects the TRVs performance... Much more than that 0.5 °C in my humble opinion.

 

39 minutes ago, mortyre said:

- Is the external temperature sensor working properly?

What is properly? It meets the specification in the manual. But some people say they do not... because although the BLE probe sends temperature every 10 minutes to the FGT, the FGT only reports if the temp differs by more than 0.5 °C. So it appears to be "slow" on your HomeCenter. I posted a graph somewhere...

 

39 minutes ago, mortyre said:

- Does not the valve make too much noise?

Opinions differ. Long runs (it tries to do that not too often, but it happens) are certainly audible and it is a different noise. I would describe mine as "a slow toy car" (4.4 reduced motor speed, it is quieter, older firmware is just "small toy car"). It is hard to describe sounds and capturing a the sound without any reference sounds leaves room for interpretation too. Some say it is worse than Danfoss LC and TRVs based on them, but personally I think if that LC does a "full stroke" they are not quiet either. If you want "silent" TRVs, you need a different kind of actuator.

 

39 minutes ago, mortyre said:

- Does the battery hold the charge?

This depends on Z-Wave, scripting, type of room, schedule and how hard it works.

Reported time between charges varies from 1 month to and estimated 6 months, possibly more. I say "estimated' because the users that I know recharged their FGTs when they updated them to 4.4 and that was around august...

 

Does this help? Probably not because each answer to your post has a "yes" and a "no" part.

 

I am sorry about that. It is complicated.

 

EDIT: because you do not own a HC/HCL I recommend you wait until they release 4.5 or arrange for that update in some way. This is not a "buying" advice, I am not telling you, if you should buy the FGT or not.

Edited November 11, 2018 by petergebruers

[mortyre 0]

 

Thank you for your detailed answers. Your explanations are clear. From what I understand the valves work well coupled with external sensor Fibaro. It's a good news.

 

For the duration of the battery for me, it must be a winter season with a maximum of 3 instructions per day, it would be good. Because if you have to reload every month is prohibitive.

[petergebruers 1,268]

Just now, mortyre said:

From what I understand the valves work well coupled with external sensor Fibaro. It's a good news.

 

That is not exactly what I wanted to say.

 

In my house, with my boiler, with my type of boiler control and in my rooms, with my expectations, with my appreciation of what "TRV noise" means and so on.... and 4.5 on its way... I would agree, I would not say they "work well for everyone" in every house, and so on...

 

I cannot tell you if they'll work for you.

 

I bet you are a clever guy but I am going to say it anyway... You'll have trouble updating to 4.5 (because you cannot update them with your controller!) and this FW version exists but has not been released yet, we do not know the good or the bad of 4.5... If you decide you want an FGT... buy only one... It does not look like an LC, some like the color feedback (and do not mind the lack of LCD) and some cannot get used to it.

 

Also, you seem to have LCs so you probably know how it interacts with heating panel, but you might want to learn how to override the heating panel, control them via Lua and find out the limitations of each approach.

 

If you have issues with LCs right now, I am not claiming in any way that the FGTs will be better, especially not if the issues are caused by radiator too small or too big, water temperature incorrect, worn or incompatible valves... And this is not a complete list of possible causes of bad performance.