Wired z wave extender?

[ptsere 0]

I am having trouble connecting my z wave devices that are located in my basement/garage. I live in a 3 story house so I have by hub on the ground level (0) in order to be in the middle. I am afraid that the concrete between level 0 and level -1 is too thick and this is the reason why I can not get any z wave signal down there. I have wired running through all the levels and the ability to add new wires as well, so ideally I would like a wired z wave extender in order to extend the z wave to the basement/garage.

Any ideas or other solutions?

[drboss 107]

No the wire repeater (z-wave signal transmitted by cable) for z-wave not exist. But if normal z-wave extender not work for you (mounted close to the ceiling) You can install the HCL as a client connected to the HC2. Then the equipment in the garage is added to HCL and is visible in HC2.

Of course, a radio signal repeater can be made for any radio technology (one antenna in one environment, another antenna in the other). But it is not easy at home

[petergebruers 1,261]

44 minutes ago, drboss said:

No the wire repeater (z-wave signal transmitted by cable) for z-wave not exist.

Indeed. The "mesh" network is completely wireless. AFAIK the protocol does not support "wired" repeaters.

 

I agree, a master/slave is a possible solution - but careful placement of several Z-Wave device should work...

 

4 hours ago, ptsere said:

Any ideas or other solutions?

Can you please have a look at this topic?

 

 

[ptsere 0]

1 hour ago, drboss said:

Of course, a radio signal repeater can be made for any radio technology (one antenna in one environment, another antenna in the other). But it is not easy at home

 

This is actually very interesting!  Can you give me some more details?

[petergebruers 1,261]

All mains powered Z-Wave nodes are "repeaters".

 

Please have a look at that picture in my post.

 

Having enough repeaters is important.

 

My Z-Wave rules of thumb: less than 5 modules, sometimes issues because not enough devices to cover all areas. Between 5 and 20...almost never issues. Between 20  and  50... sometimes trouble. Between 50 and 100 devices real "weirdness" starts and communication gets "fragile". Above 100 make sure you have the tools to diagnose network issues (ie sniffer, you can make one yourself) or get in touch with a good certified installer to support you (I am and end user, not an installer). Know about CPU and memory usage. Follow this forum. I have participated in many topics regarding "delays" and it is never easy...

 

[ptsere 0]

1 hour ago, drboss said:

No the wire repeater (z-wave signal transmitted by cable) for z-wave not exist. But if normal z-wave extender not work for you (mounted close to the ceiling) You can install the HCL as a client connected to the HC2. Then the equipment in the garage is added to HCL and is visible in HC2.

Of course, a radio signal repeater can be made for any radio technology (one antenna in one environment, another antenna in the other). But it is not easy at home

 

Will a simple Antena - Wire - Antena work?  Or would i need to amplify the signal somehow?

[jakub.jezek 350]

1 minute ago, ptsere said:

 

Will a simple Antena - Wire - Antena work?  Or would i need to amplify the signal somehow?

Z-Wave antenna with higher dBi helps only, that you can cover more devices by direct communication. I think that will be not case here.

 

The only sollution i can think of now is check signal with some Fibaro battery device there (check ceiling), only to get info if you get Z-Wave at all. If not you will need to use HCL as Client and connect to HCL through Gateway connection feature on HC2.

 

Analogy from Wi-Fi: If you measure RSSI (signal strenght) -70 dBm and below, then you add Wi-Fi AP to cover rest of your house, because you want to watch Netflix there and not use LTE.

 

Back to Z-Wave: HC2 is Z-Wave router. You add HCL as another Z-Wave router (Z-Wave does not have Z-Wave AP) in client mode to cover more ground.

 

 

[petergebruers 1,261]

10 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

You add HCL as another Z-Wave router

I know what you are saying, but I would never say "router". Call it "nit picking" but I think in a topic about mesh, routing and coverage it matters!

 

Adding a HCL creates a separate Z-Wave network. It gets a different home ID and because of that they are separate.... nodes belong to only controller. The use the same frequency, so they can, and will interfere if they are close to each other.

 

A consequence is you cannot do direct association between devices on different controllers.

 

17 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

The only sollution i can think of now is check signal with some Fibaro battery device there (check ceiling), only to get info if you get Z-Wave

 

Excellent idea!

 

Now, can you all please read this topic because it almost exactly answers the question of @ptsere!

 

 

[ptsere 0]

Sorry, what is HCL?

[jakub.jezek 350]

3 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

Now, can you all please read this topic because it almost exactly answers the question of @ptsere!

 

That topic is why i mentioned to check ceiling with battery Z-Wave device. Btw, nice illustration.

 

6 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

I know what you are saying, but I would never say "router"

Professional degradation on my end. I am network guy.

 

1 minute ago, ptsere said:

Sorry, what is HCL?

Z-Wave gateway. See

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[petergebruers 1,261]

5 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

Btw, nice illustration.

Thanks!

 

5 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

I am network guy

Me too. That explains why I like the way you think. That and the fact that you always try to help people!

[ptsere 0]

1 hour ago, jakub.jezek said:

That topic is why i mentioned to check ceiling with battery Z-Wave device. Btw, nice illustration.

 

Professional degradation on my end. I am network guy.

 

Z-Wave gateway. See

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Noted regarding HCL.  I am using the Samsung SmartThings hub so I dont know if adding an HCL would be a viable solution for me.

 

I will try using a battery device as you mentioned, but I thought that battery z wave devices do not act as repeaters, right?

[petergebruers 1,261]

20 minutes ago, ptsere said:

I am using the Samsung SmartThings hub so I dont know if adding an HCL would be a viable solution for me.

No. The HCL<->HC master slave is Fibaro-only.

 

20 minutes ago, ptsere said:

I will try using a battery device as you mentioned

 

Jakub is referring to specific Fibaro devices, to -test- the network, not to improve it. They can test the network and the LED displays the quality of the connection. Battery devices are convenient for that purpose but it also is available on the Fibaro Wallplug

 

It is in the manual.

 

24 minutes ago, ptsere said:

but I thought that battery z wave devices do not act as repeaters, right?

 

Right! Only mains devices can act as repeaters and enhance the mesh.

[akatar 207]

2 hours ago, jakub.jezek said:

Z-Wave antenna with higher dBi helps only, that you can cover more devices by direct communication. I think that will be not case here.

 

The only sollution i can think of now is check signal with some Fibaro battery device there (check ceiling), only to get info if you get Z-Wave at all. If not you will need to use HCL as Client and connect to HCL through Gateway connection feature on HC2.

 

Analogy from Wi-Fi: If you measure RSSI (signal strenght) -70 dBm and below, then you add Wi-Fi AP to cover rest of your house, because you want to watch Netflix there and not use LTE.

 

Back to Z-Wave: HC2 is Z-Wave router. You add HCL as another Z-Wave router (Z-Wave does not have Z-Wave AP) in client mode to cover more ground.

 

 

you need a specific length

 

copy/paste

An antenna is a conductor in the form of a spline, electrically connected to the communications module through a transmission line. The antenna diameter hardly has any importance, as long as the antenna stays in the spline form. The most effective antenna has the same length as the length of the wave it is used for. For practical purposes, half or a quarter of that length will suffice. Most LoRa antennas are a 1/4 wavelength.

The wavelength of a frequency

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v / f, where v is the speed of the transmission and f is the (average) transmission frequency. In air, v is equal to c, the speed of light, which is 299.792.458 m/s. The wavelength for the 868 MHz band is thus 299.792.458 / 868.000.000 = 34,54 cm. Half of this is 17,27 cm and a quarter is 8,63 cm.

For the 433 MHz band the wavelength is 299.792.458 / 433.000.000 = 69,24 cm. Half of this is 34,62 cm and a quarter is 17,31 cm.

A piece of wire of 8,6 cm therefore will do for a LoRa application in the 868 MHz band. The exact length is a major factor in the quality of an antenna. Unless the antenna is directly soldered to the LoRa module, use 50 ohm cable and certified connectors for any transmission line.

 

 

 

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[ptsere 0]

I just had an idea, please let me know if it is feasible...

 

In my basement I have a few fibaro single switch 2 devices. Like all fibaro in wall devices there is a small wire hanging from it which I assume is an antenna?

What is stopping me from extending this wire and passing it through the wall all the  way up to the middle level of my house?  The single switch is almost exactly below my ST hub and there is a pipe for wires that I could pass it through.  I estimate the distance (not straight line) is about 6 or 7 meters?

Edited October 30, 2018 by ptsere

[jakub.jezek 350]

13 hours ago, akatar said:

you need a specific length

 

copy/paste

An antenna is a conductor in the form of a spline, electrically connected to the communications module through a transmission line. The antenna diameter hardly has any importance, as long as the antenna stays in the spline form. The most effective antenna has the same length as the length of the wave it is used for. For practical purposes, half or a quarter of that length will suffice. Most LoRa antennas are a 1/4 wavelength.

The wavelength of a frequency

Please login or register to see this link.

v / f, where v is the speed of the transmission and f is the (average) transmission frequency. In air, v is equal to c, the speed of light, which is 299.792.458 m/s. The wavelength for the 868 MHz band is thus 299.792.458 / 868.000.000 = 34,54 cm. Half of this is 17,27 cm and a quarter is 8,63 cm.

For the 433 MHz band the wavelength is 299.792.458 / 433.000.000 = 69,24 cm. Half of this is 34,62 cm and a quarter is 17,31 cm.

A piece of wire of 8,6 cm therefore will do for a LoRa application in the 868 MHz band. The exact length is a major factor in the quality of an antenna. Unless the antenna is directly soldered to the LoRa module, use 50 ohm cable and certified connectors for any transmission line.

Thanks. Now i know something new.

 

14 hours ago, ptsere said:

Noted regarding HCL.  I am using the Samsung SmartThings hub so I dont know if adding an HCL would be a viable solution for me.

Right, sorry i forgot to check what HC you have .

 

10 hours ago, ptsere said:

In my basement I have a few fibaro single switch 2 devices. Like all fibaro in wall devices there is a small wire hanging from it which I assume is an antenna?

What is stopping me from extending this wire and passing it through the wall all the  way up to the middle level of my house?  The single switch is almost exactly below my ST hub and there is a pipe for wires that I could pass it through.  I estimate the distance (not straight line) is about 6 or 7 meters?

Power on those antennas is something under 1 mW. So i do not think, that tweeking with antenna will do the trick.

 

Quote from manual (

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Quote

Arranging the antenna

• Locate the antenna as far from metal elements as possible (connecting wires, bracket rings, etc.) in order to prevent interferences.
• Metal surfaces in the direct vicinity of the antenna (e.g. flush mounted metal boxes, metal door frames) may impair signal reception!
• Do not cut or shorten the antenna – its length is perfectly matched to the band in which the system operates.

Basically do not touch it. It is set perfectly from factory for 868,42 MHz.

[petergebruers 1,261]

Although extending that wire sounded a bit weird to me at first, and I bet nobody has ever tried it to extend it that much (several meters)... it might work... But not necessarily by extending that much, just add multiples of 8.6 cm. Keep in mind to isolate the wire, it is referenced to main (live and dangerous voltage. There is an antenna filter, but it does not have enough separation to count as a barrier for mains voltage!). It totally voids warranty and you also might be violating the electrical code (law, regulations) of your country. If you break something, that is your own responsability.

 

But first I would try what Fibaro users know as "update the mesh"

 

On other controllers it is sometimes called "update neighbors" or "heal". I do not own a Smartthings hub, but Google tells me it is called "repair"

 

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It is important to do that when you move devices, add or delete them or if you "toy with antennas". Or move your controller, which also might help in your case.

 

When I was young (errr...  30  years ago) I built my own FM transmitters and receivers and I do know a little bit about antennas. They do not have to be exactly 8.6 cm but multiples of that will work (within certain limits and certain multiples, and there are issues with impedance matching) too. They change the radiation pattern so you get a more vertical or horizontal reach, so it is not a cure for everything. Some users bought larger antennas for their HC (it has an SMA connector) and for some that helped.

 

If adding or moving Z-Wave devices + "repair" does not help... I am out of ideas...

 

Good luck!

[Guest Eriond]

On 10/30/2018 at 2:59 PM, drboss said:

No the wire repeater (z-wave signal transmitted by cable) for z-wave not exist.

 

I found this interesting page at one of the z-wave chip manufacturers, that implies the possibility of encapsulating the z-wave protocol over IP.

That way, one could extend a z-wave network over an arbitrary distance, provided there is an Z/IP gateway at each end:

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I'm not sure if my skills are enough to make it myself, but I will certainly have a closer look.