Zwave plus and Zwave Mixed HC3

[Kumlaekeby 2]

Hi everyone!

 

I am wondering if I mix Zwave and Zwave plus switches, will my whole network downgrade to the old Zwave protocol?

Or will it be able to communicate with Zwave plus switches directly, if there is no need of mesh thru the old Zwave switch?

 

Like if it communicate like this

Mesh "Gateway -> Zwave plus switch ->  Z-wave plus switch" = Zwave plus protocol, even if I have old Zwave units in my network?

Mesh "Gateway -> Old Zwave switch -> Zwave plus switch" = Zwave protocol, because the route goes thru a old Zwave unit before it reaches the Zwave Plus unit.

 

I have a few older switches today but I have a lot of older Fibaro motionssensor.

I thinking of buying the new HC3 and I would like to benefit of the Z-wave plus but I dont want to buy new motionsensor .   

[petergebruers 1,268]

7 hours ago, Kumlaekeby said:

am wondering if I mix Zwave and Zwave plus switches, will my whole network downgrade to the old Zwave protocol?

Excellent question. No, older devices do not downgrade your network. Those older devices won't get any new features or speed increase. The HC2 was capable of doing 40 kbit/s, the HC3 can do (and will do) 100 kbit/s if the other device is Z-Wave Plus.

 

7 hours ago, Kumlaekeby said:

Like if it communicate like this

Mesh "Gateway -> Zwave plus switch ->  Z-wave plus switch" = Zwave plus protocol, even if I have old Zwave units in my network?

Mesh "Gateway -> Old Zwave switch -> Zwave plus switch" = Zwave protocol, because the route goes thru a old Zwave unit before it reaches the Zwave Plus unit.

Z-Wave uses a routing algorithm based on availability, speed, neighbors and a bunch more.

HC3 has better range, you may get more devices in direct range, and it can do 100 kbit/s with Z-Wave Plus devices.

 

7 hours ago, Kumlaekeby said:

I thinking of buying the new HC3

I advice you to do your research and follow this forum, to make sure the product meets your expectations.

There is no "easy migration". This post is a starting point:

And this one:

 

 

 

[Kumlaekeby 2]

12 hours ago, petergebruers said:

Excellent question. No, older devices do not downgrade your network. Those older devices won't get any new features or speed increase. The HC2 was capable of doing 40 kbit/s, the HC3 can do (and will do) 100 kbit/s if the other device is Z-Wave Plus.

 

Z-Wave uses a routing algorithm based on availability, speed, neighbors and a bunch more.

HC3 has better range, you may get more devices in direct range, and it can do 100 kbit/s with Z-Wave Plus devices.

 

I advice you to do your research and follow this forum, to make sure the product meets your expectations.

There is no "easy migration". This post is a starting point:

And this one:

 

 

 

 

Great thnx for the reply :)!

Yepp I guess there will be som days of work to get everything working again, making scenes and stuff.

But I will not jump on it, I wait and see what other people think about it.

[akatar 208]

14 hours ago, petergebruers said:

Excellent question. No, older devices do not downgrade your network. Those older devices won't get any new features or speed increase. The HC2 was capable of doing 40 kbit/s, the HC3 can do (and will do) 100 kbit/s if the other device is Z-Wave Plus.

 

Z-Wave uses a routing algorithm based on availability, speed, neighbors and a bunch more.

HC3 has better range, you may get more devices in direct range, and it can do 100 kbit/s with Z-Wave Plus devices.

 

I advice you to do your research and follow this forum, to make sure the product meets your expectations.

There is no "easy migration". This post is a starting point:

And this one:

 

 

 

 

also non zwaveplus modules can do 100kbit

 

Full Name: Please login or register to see this link.

Polling: Polling Disabled

Manufacturer: GreenWave Reality Inc.

Type: 0x3

ID: 0x4

Listens: Yes

Version: 3,33 (Unknown) Firmware: 4.20

Neighbor Count: 20

Speed: 100Kbps

Neighbors: 1, 106, 107, 109, 112, 114, 123, 125, 127, 128, 130, 141, 143, 149, 156, 165, 166, 170, 176, 177

Last Working Route: Direct (100K)

Set Route:

Uses Interface: z-nethuis (1)

Basic Type: ROUTING SLAVE,     Generic Type: SWITCH BINARY,     Specific Type: POWER SWITCH BINARY

Command Classes:      Supported: Switch Binary(V 1), Meter(V 2), Multi Channel, Manufacturer Specific, Version, Basic, Notification(V 1), Configuration, Switch All, Association, Indicator, Protection, Crc 16 Encap

[petergebruers 1,268]

11 minutes ago, akatar said:

also non zwaveplus modules can do 100kbit

Correct, that was a little white lie. Actually it is the "ZW500" chip that adds the 100k data rate, the ZW300 and older only have 9.6 and 40. But since "Z-Wave Plus" runs on ZW500 that is a good approximation. Your gateway displays the speed based on "inclusion data". HC2/3 does not expose that data iirc. Now we have "Z-Wave Plus Plus v2" but this spec does not have a speed increase, unfortunately...

Whit some effort, specs can be found on 

Please login or register to see this link.

Edited February 6, 2020 by petergebruers

[akatar 208]

2 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

 Your gateway displays the speed based on "inclusion data". 

Yes and also you can see that the last working route also reads 100kbit, so it shows both

 

[petergebruers 1,268]

3 minutes ago, akatar said:

Yes and also you can see that the last working route also reads 100kbit, so it shows both

That is what the SDK calls "Extended Status Information" and is very useful if you do not own Zniffer, it will probably also tell you the route, but in this case it says "Direct" which is of course better than a route... The HC2 does not support it because the controller does not have this information (or does not expose it, I am not sure). The HC3 does have a more recent controller and SDK, so this extended info may be available to Fibaro support. I don't see that info anywhere in HC3. But that might change at some point. OpenZWave also decodes it, I added that part... Not sure about OpenHAB.

 

I also notice "Set Route"... Have you ever tried (or needed) that option?

[akatar 208]

@petergebruers

No i must say i never tried it, i can also choose for all devices: discover neighbours and learn new routes (test known routes)

 

@petergebruers

here an example for a not direct route, and then you can see the route

 

Full Name: Please login or register to see this link.

Polling: Polling Disabled

Manufacturer: Sigma Designs

Type: 0x0

ID: 0x0

Listens: No

Version: (Not Available)

Neighbor Count: 2

Speed: 40Kbps

Neighbors: 1, 31

Last Working Route: 128->171->112 (40K)

Set Route:

Uses Interface: z-nethuis (1)

Basic Type: ROUTING SLAVE,     Generic Type: SENSOR BINARY,     Specific Type: ROUTING SENSOR BINARY

Command Classes:      Supported: Sensor Binary, Wake Up, Association, Battery, Multi Cmd, Crc 16 Encap, Manufacturer Specific, Version, Configuration, Multi Instance Association, Sensor Multilevel, Sensor Alarm      Controlled: Sensor Binary, Sensor Multilevel, Sensor Alarm

[Kumlaekeby 2]

1 hour ago, akatar said:

 

Full Name: Please login or register to see this link.

Polling: Polling Disabled

Manufacturer: Sigma Designs

Type: 0x0

ID: 0x0

Listens: No

Version: (Not Available)

Neighbor Count: 2

Speed: 40Kbps

Neighbors: 1, 31

Last Working Route: 128->171->112 (40K)

Set Route:

Uses Interface: z-nethuis (1)

Basic Type: ROUTING SLAVE,     Generic Type: SENSOR BINARY,     Specific Type: ROUTING SENSOR BINARY

Command Classes:      Supported: Sensor Binary, Wake Up, Association, Battery, Multi Cmd, Crc 16 Encap, Manufacturer Specific, Version, Configuration, Multi Instance Association, Sensor Multilevel, Sensor Alarm      Controlled: Sensor Binary, Sensor Multilevel, Sensor Alarm

Hmmm what are you using to sniff the traffic :)? Looks really nice!

[akatar 208]

@Kumlaekeby

i am using homeseer as controller and this information is standard