Controlling a 24V Hydronic Heating Actuator

[schnarked 0]

Hi Guys,

 

I'm ripping out what remains of my hair trying to work out how to wire the smart implant for controlling a 24V heating actuator (image attached).

 

I've done the same wiring as for controlling my curtains / garage door, and they're all working fine, and the device is connected fine into the zwave network, and is showing the elements correctly from what I’m seeing. I am running Homeseer not the Fibaro SW, but I can't see how that would be making any difference as the other Smart Implants are working just fine.

 

I've tried swapping the brown / blue cabling into each of the outputs, as well as changing the outputs, but nothing seems to be working. I’ve also confirmed that the 24V actuator works fine by testing it on a different 24V controller and it heats up the device correctly. I've also tried changing the values for 156 / 156 (confirming that auto off is not enabled), as well as 154/155 (changing between conatacts normally open & closed), and the Fibaro team have advised that this should work, but haven't been able to provide info, so was just wondering if anyone can provide some help to get it working.

 

They've advised that:

• Potential free output are capable of closing/opening a circuit within that range of voltage: Maximum voltage on outputs: 30V DC / 20V AC ±5%
• That means 24V DC operated device will be able to be opened/closed.
• The way you have connected it allows you to turn the power supply on / off, but that it works like an impulse

 

I think that the issue might be around it needing to operate in an always on mechanism, rather than the impulse - but i can't seem to find a way to work around this / change this setting

 

Part of the reason why I bought this device is because the Fibaro website shows almost this exact example as a use case, and it also states that it can output up to 30V DC & up to 150mA which I believe should be fine as the actuator is 24V and has up to 2W power draw which I believe should be up to 0.083Amps

 

Thanks,

 

Kieran

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[jakub.jezek 353]

9 hours ago, schnarked said:

If so, can i just confirm how I need to wire it so i can pass this info onto a mate who is handy with a soldering kit.

• PSU Negative -  To Blue on the Actuator
• PSU Positive - To One of the two Output 1 terminals
• Output 1 (Other Terminal) - To Brown on the Actuator

That would be exact connection.

 

5 hours ago, petergebruers said:

Specs of the Smart Implant: Maximum current on outputs: 150 mA

Spec of MY wax actuator (I still have not seen specs of YOUR wax actuator...)= peak current 600 mA

Newer Möhlenhoff wax valve are about 1W, so they would be ok. Not these AA4004. They have cca 1,8W. 

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@schnarked, i would suggest to connect them to different device. You could use FIBARO RGBW controller, that ramps out only between 0-100%. But connection would be different.

Another alternative is FGS-222, which is powered by 230V, but has galvanically isolated relays from 230V, so it can run 24V and connection is the same. But i think FIBARO has stoppend production of those.

Next alternative is 230V FGS-2x3 with dumb relay for switching 24V or getting newer Möhlenhoffs for 230V.

 

Also some customers that contact us about AA series told me, that they burned out. So we sell them newer Möhlenhoffs.

[petergebruers 1,265]

3 hours ago, jakub.jezek said:

@schnarked, i would suggest to connect them to different device. You could use FIBARO RGBW controller, that ramps out only between 0-100%. But connection would be different.

Yes, we seem to agree, and it would not be particularly difficult to do so, the schematics in the manual show lamps or led strips and you can connect those actuators as if  they are lamps. Four channels and each can do 4 times 3A so no issues with inrush current.

 

3 hours ago, jakub.jezek said:

Newer Möhlenhoff wax valve are about 1W, so they would be ok. Not these AA4004. They have cca 1,8W. 

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Yes current is power divided by voltage but be careful, these often have PTC heaters, and PTC heaters have a lower resistance, thus a higher power and current, when they are cold, so briefly they take more current than expected. That can be as much as 5-10 times steady state current. That page does not list a peak current, I am not sure if it is PTC based. When in doubt, I think the only option is to measure the resistance of the actuator when it is cold. For example, my 230 V version measures 7500 Ohm cold, so when cold the actual power dissipation is 7 W (and will drop to < 2 Watt after heating). I am saying, the tiny "smart implant" might have a problem with that, all other options you've mentioned are OK imho.

Edited March 8, 2020 by petergebruers

[petergebruers 1,265]

I googled "240131-002" and it does link to a "hydronic actuator" but no technical data... Do you have more information? Is this a 4 wire or 2 wire? If it only has 2 wires it might be one of those "wax actuators" that do not have a motor inside but instead contain a heater that expands a vessel... They are completely silent but take 2 minutes to go from open <-> closed. Those require a PWM signal and a 24 V (or 230 V - depends on the model) power supply. I cannot tell you much more that this, I have ordered a "wax" actuator to see if I can use them, too soon to tell...

[jakub.jezek 353]

@petergebruers, that is Möhlenhoff wax valve drive A4004 NC. We sell different one from Möhlenhoff.

 

@schnarked

I think it seems like wrong connection. Valve drive are not potential free as curtains or garage doors may be.

 

Example with output 1:

24V Positive lead from PSU needs to go to one terminal on output 1 and from 2nd terminal in output 1 to valve drive. Blue wire of valve drive needs to be connected to negative in PSU.

[petergebruers 1,265]

7 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

that is Möhlenhoff wax valve drive A4004 NC

Thanks @jakub.jezek... Ah, so I guessed right... The problem is simply this... The user has not connected any power supply, so the actuator does not open...

 

11 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

24V Positive lead from PSU needs to go to one terminal on output 1 and from 2nd terminal in output 1 to valve drive. Blue wire of valve drive needs to be connected to negative in PSU.

Exactly...

[petergebruers 1,265]

Something kept nagging at me... those devices are typically 2 W so 0,084 mA indeed but they are PTC based so draw more current when they start. The spec of the actuator I've ordered says peak current 600 mA for example. Something to keep in mind if you have a few of these, your power supply has to handle this. And the switching device.

[schnarked 0]

21 hours ago, jakub.jezek said:

@petergebruers, that is Möhlenhoff wax valve drive A4004 NC. We sell different one from Möhlenhoff.

 

@schnarked

I think it seems like wrong connection. Valve drive are not potential free as curtains or garage doors may be.

 

Example with output 1:

24V Positive lead from PSU needs to go to one terminal on output 1 and from 2nd terminal in output 1 to valve drive. Blue wire of valve drive needs to be connected to negative in PSU.

Hey Guys,

 

Thanks for the feedback / info and I thought that i may have it wired incorrectly, and yes this is a two wire wax acuator, that when powered up, heats up and then opens the valve.

 

Just so that i understand correctly - I should be able to re-wire this and it should work?

 

If so, can i just confirm how I need to wire it so i can pass this info onto a mate who is handy with a soldering kit.

• PSU Negative -  To Blue on the Actuator
• PSU Positive - To One of the two Output 1 terminals
• Output 1 (Other Terminal) - To Brown on the Actuator

Couple of follow-up questions:

• If the PSU Negative is going directly to Blue on the actuator - how do i power the Smart Implant? Should i put a split of some sort, or do I need a separate power supply? 
• Likewise for the PSU Positive - should i put in another splitter
• I've got a 24V power supply with a max output of 1.25A so i'm hoping that it should be okay to output the power
• If i wanted to wire in a 2nd actuator - would i just repeat the above with the Output 2 as well
• No other wiring is needed?
• I don't need to configure any of the variables / settings?

Many Thanks,

Kieran

 

[petergebruers 1,265]

I don not have practical experience with this but I would not do it...

 

Specs of the Smart Implant: Maximum current on outputs: 150 mA

Spec of MY wax actuator (I still have not seen specs of YOUR wax actuator...)= peak current 600 mA

 

For me, that is a no-go. You need something more powerful. Like a RGBW module.

 

So your power supply with 1.2 A would not have any headroom with 2 of those actuators either.

[schnarked 0]

Hey all,

 

Thanks for the info - I haven't been able to find the spec sheet for the hydronic valve, and given that the AA4004 part appears to be for same underlying equipment, i'm going to assume that it's the same element but rebranded, and that it'll run into the same inrush issue, so i'll be cautious and not use it.

 

I've decided to go with a Aeotec Z-Wave Plus Dual Nano Switch, as it natively switches 24V and it supports a dual switch which means i'll be able to control two of the actuators at the same time.

 

I'm very appreciative of all of the assistance.