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Symbiot78

Controlling blinds motor 18V DC

Question

I read on vesternet that it's possible to control 24V DC motor for blinds/curtains.  (

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) scroll down about halfway.

Can I also control 18V DC motor?

 

I really just want to avoid having to add another hub to control my blinds. 

The system is hunter douglas powerview which comes with a 18V dc motor. You can add a hub to get access to the system via an app. There are addons for HC2 & HCL. 

But honestly I'd prefer just using my HC3 and a fibaro module. I don't see the point in a hub/app extra.

 

So can it be done?

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Posted (edited)

Hi @Symbiot78,

 

48 minutes ago, Symbiot78 said:

Can I also control 18V DC motor?

 

If you use an FGS-224, you can control you're 18V motor.

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But beware that you make sure that you do not swith both relais at the same time. This you can solve by software (parameter 164) or better with two aditional relais.

So that an normaly closed contact from going up, is in the circuit of going down, and vice versa. That means that is you're shutter is going up you cannot send it down before the up command is gone.

 

Edited by Flash

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Maybe you can use a 

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. But Fibaro HC2 does not support it correctly, so I assume the HC3 will not either. (no template)

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The 224 is great and works safely.
But !
The can only 6A individually and 9A total.
A motor consumes approx. 7x nominal current when starting.
Furthermore, the tiny relays are not suitable for switching such high inductances.
One should not forget that.
Fibaro has also determined this and added a zero voltage switch in terms of software during the last Ubdate.
But this is just a crutch that only works rudimentary and is not a solution.
If large motors are to be switched then think about power contactors or electronic contactors.
Otherwise you have a very short lifespan.
You can then control these power components with your 224.
When we talk about motors and their controls, this is not for hobbyists, there are a few things to consider.
But everything can be solved. You just have to know which components can do what and which physics work there.
Greetings Frank

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  • Hi Frank

     

    thank you so much for your thoughts on this.

    do you know the motor I am referring to?


    How would you suggest solving this?

     

    If I connect the motor with the transformer (the part plugged into the wall) and buy the power view hub I can control everything just fine.. 

    What I am hoping to do is control the same motor without the hub.

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    @Symbiot78

     

    A few things to consider: the powerview hub price is about 200 euro, so if you have more than 4 blinds, the Fibaro 224’s probably Cost more.

    Also, when your HC is down, you have no way to control your blinds.

     

    I have 21 Hunter Douglas (Luxaflex) blinds of the 18 volt system, all controlled by a Powerview hub that in turn is controlled by my HC2. 
    please beware that up to HC2 software version 4.58, the powerview plugin is broken (have not tested 4.60 yet). So I made a virtual device and control the powerview hub directly with this vd.

     

     

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    Posted (edited)

    Since I do not know all of this, it is a little difficult to answer.
    I'm going to try to bring some light into the tunnel.
    1. All this is operated with 24VDC (18VDC) ?!
    2. Each motor has 40W?
    3. Each roller blind should be controlled individually by z-wave (HC3) ?!
    4. Are the switches open/close still to be used?!
    If all of this applies, then that's no problem!
    The performance of the motors is manageable.
    For each roller blind simply connect a FIBARO FGR-223 and so:

    Please login or register to see this link.

     

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    Edited by FBerges

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  • @FBerges

     

    The motor is this one:

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    Powersupply is this one:

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    I cannot find info on how much power the motor needs at startup.

     

    #3 : I'd want to control them individually.. even though they're in the same room.

    #4 : physical switches will not be used.. I might add some sort of button.. but they come with a remote so if I have it controlled with HC3 AND remotes.. I doubt I'd need a switch.

    @Flash - so you're saying I cannot use the relay?

    @JanRemco - I'd very much like to stay within the Fibaro line of devices if possible.

    @Wimjanse - A very valid point. I might end up with the hub.. but would like to investigate this option as well. Just to avoid a hub which would only serve as a relay for fibaro commands (I hope)

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    Posted (edited)

    Hi @Symbiot78,

    If you want you can use a relais.

    See picture.

    @FBerges, is correct that the motor startup can cause trouble, and yes you have also to look for the proper relais. There ara solid state relais that can switch these kind of motors.

    My greatest concern is that if you forget to set parameter 164, ( after an exclusion/inclusion or reconfig.) it will be possible to Set Q1 and Q2 at the same time. So the motor will get power on both sides.

    If the motor can handle that, it will be no problem.

    If you have a mutlimeter you can try to measure the current during operation. Some multimeters have a setting to measure peak currents.

    A lot off "If"s ".

    So IF the motor can handle power at UP/DOWN at same time. IF the current does not exceed spec's of the FGS-224 then you do not need the relais.

     

    I would prefer a physical switch. Then you can always open you're shutters even if the HC3 is not responding.

     

    Please login or register to see this spoiler.

     

    Edited by Flash

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    So if you use the FIBARO FGR-223 module per motor, everything is taken care of.
    1. The outputs monitor themselves.
    2. The load per relay is not too high.
    3. Every motor is monitored overload etc.
    4. Each roller blind can be controlled individually (solar radiation, light requirements, etc.)
    5. Little installation effort
    6. Each roller blind could be controlled by hand (button) independently of the gateway (in an emergency)

    Check out the manual.
    I installed 10 of them here and I am very satisfied with them.
    But I also have 230V blinds, but that is not decisive.

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  • 1 hour ago, FBerges said:

    So if you use the FIBARO FGR-223 module per motor, everything is taken care of.
    1. The outputs monitor themselves.
    2. The load per relay is not too high.
    3. Every motor is monitored overload etc.
    4. Each roller blind can be controlled individually (solar radiation, light requirements, etc.)
    5. Little installation effort
    6. Each roller blind could be controlled by hand (button) independently of the gateway (in an emergency)

    Check out the manual.
    I installed 10 of them here and I am very satisfied with them.
    But I also have 230V blinds, but that is not decisive.

     

    Forgive me.. but the 223 .. the roller shutter 3, cannot handle DC power, right? the 18V motor is DC. Or am I missing something?

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    Posted (edited)

    Oh yes I missed that!
    Mea Culpa
    You can use the FGS-222 which is supplied with 230V and has 2 potential-free contacts.

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    Or the FGS-224 which has a 230VAC / 24-30VDC supply and also 2 potential-free contacts and the new z-wave Chip 500

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    If possible use it, it is currently also available at all inexpensive prices.
    Then prohibit the simultaneity of the relays in the parameters.
    Unfortunately, you then have to do without the blocker detection and% control as well as the soft limit switches.
    It is no longer as easy as with the roller shutter module.
    Sorry again for the error and good that you noticed that before.

    Edited by FBerges

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    I did not mention the Qubino because I have problems with the "flush dimmer" and the "flush 2 relays".
    Both don't run on my HC3.
    With my home that I used before and with the first firmwhare they ran.
    That's why I would be careful with Qubino. I currently have 6 modules here that I cannot use, although they are OK.
    This is very annoying.

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    Hi @FBerges
    I use a lot of FGS-222 for potential free contacts (I.e. for gate, garage door etc) but in manual of FGS-224 I read "Always use the same power source for L and IN terminals"

     

    Does this mean FGS-224 cannot be used just to make contact between in and out? Fgs-222 is not available anymore so this would leave an open issue...

     

    Thanks

    Ricardo

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    Look at the picture from the manual.
    You can supply the module with 230VAC or 24VDC and have 2 potential-free relay contacts with one root.
    You can also endcouple the inputs from the outputs.
    I have the module here and it works just fine.

     

    L or +24VDC

    N or GND

     

     

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    Thanks @FBerges but what I don't understand is why we must now use same contact for L and IN - I have many situations with old FGS-222 where IN and Q are 2 contacts that I simply need to connect In order to turn on a heater or open garage door for example.. have you understood what happens if I use different contact for L and IN?

     

    Thanks

    R

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    No, that's just a block diagram!
    The two relays are potential-free, however, with a common starting point (IN)
    So you can supply 230VAC and switch 24VDC without problems
    Or supply 24VDC and switch 230VAC.
    However, the inputs are not potential-free, they always refer to the supply voltage!
     

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    /monthly_2020_08/image.png.6b72dbfc57fc537b6b42fc3eb354398b.png" />

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    Ok thanks I was only puzzled by this sentence in the manual: "Always use the same power source for L and IN terminals" so good to know that this isn't necessary.

     

    Thanks!

    R

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    40 minutes ago, FBerges said:

    So you can supply 230VAC and switch 24VDC without problems

     

    beware that in some country's it's not allowed due to creepage.

    Have a look in this topic.

     

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    I once opened my FGS-224.
    The relays that are installed are the same as in the FGS-223 and have all possible approvals from CE to VDE to UL.
    So there can be no problems.
    The module itself has a CE mark.
    So everyone can be sure that they can operate it in the EU.
    Now please no discussion about the CE mark about it I could write books please spare me that.
    When it comes to proper installation and connection, I see no problem as an electrical tester. You are out of responsibility, so it is up to the manufacturer.
    The manual does not prohibit such operation.
    Finally, let it be said that installation is only permitted in a dry environment (IP20), so that is also minimal with the leakage currents!

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