Use SmartImplant in multi-switch mode per input

[Martin_N 146]

Hi all,
I don't know if anyone has dealt with this issue, which I have been thinking about for a long time.
How to connect two / three switches to one SmartImplant input ...

We have 2 options.
1) tie about it in bin2dec mode.
i1 = 0, i2 = 0 => 00 = state 0 all off
i1 = 1, i2 = 0 => 01 = state 1 on
i1 = 0, i2 = 1 => 10 = state 2 on
i1 = 1, i2 = 1 => 11 = state 3 on
However, this has a problem in that it cannot be used well enough for ordinary switches, but rather on some rotary selector, which can switch both inputs at once.

2)
I would use the input in analog mode.
Then equip the individual switches with resistors (parallel to the NO contact), which will make a voltage divider.
Simplified by using for example 1x kohm + (s1) 2kohm + (s2) 10kohm it will solve 3 states on one input:
1) s1 off, s2 off = 13kohm
2) s1 on, s2 off = 11kohm
3) s1 off, s2 on = 3kohm
4) s1 on, s2 on = 1kohm

From the above, you can then distinguish the correct states .. a suitable choice of resistance can add a third switch, but it's even more complicated ....
Fibaro states the input resolution of up to 100 samples.

Did anyone do something similar?

eM.

[FBerges 52]

Hi Martin

Basically, that would work.
What speaks against it is that normal switches are designed for switching 230V and a minimum switching current of 50mA, with 50mA being very optimistic.
They are not suitable for 10V and a few mA.
To get something like that safely, you would have to have switches with gold contacts.
I don't want to go into too much detail because there are other problems.
So I would refrain from doing it.
Better to use other modules if that costs more money.
Once you start with analog, think about many types of interference such as crosstalk, ripple voltage, capacitive such as inductive coupling. If you have never heard these terms, you are in for some nasty surprises.
First of all, ensure a clean supply voltage.
Furthermore for a safe connection to the 230VAC.
Then a clean construction no cobweb wiring.
If none of this is a problem you can start with the circuit.
I've done this many times in my professional life to save money.
But then I always had better components and a clean environment.
Better to stick to the usual and pass on 230VAC in the event of an electric shock can lead to cardiac arrest after 14 days!
So have fun with tinkering what you imagine works but!
Greetings from Germany / Sauerland
Frank

[Martin_N 146]

@FBerges

 

Hi Frank,..

 

I really appreciate your contributions. We often "meet" in this section with Smart Implant. When I say so, I said A, you added B.
Thus, .. important remarks about the unsuitability of common switches, gold-plated contacts, caution when working with 230V. I appreciate it because it complements this discussion, so if someone who is completely knowledgeable about it reads it, it can show him the right direction.
I would just like to point out, I am a low-voltage soul, however, I am authorized to work under voltage up to 1000V
So at least I "guess a little" what I'm doing
I will also comment on your comments:

 

Quote

What speaks against it is that normal switches are designed for switching 230V and a minimum switching current of 50mA, with 50mA being very optimistic.
They are not suitable for 10V and a few mA.To get something like that safely, you would have to have switches with gold contacts.
I don't want to go into too much detail because there are other problems.
So I would refrain from doing it.

Yes I agree. Many people don't realize it, but it really is. I will explain: In practice, an electric arc occurs when switching, but mainly when opening a circuit. The contacts of the switches for the AC circuit are better because in the AC circuit, when an arc is created, its intensity decreases as the wave passes through zero. There is less tanning, so these switches do not have to be significantly treated against burning (not counting contactors and various power elements ... there is the construction of contacts quite an interesting "sports industry").
In contrast, in the case of a DC circuit, the zero crossing is not zero, so the arc stretches until the appropriate contact distance is exceeded.
The whole problem is more extensive, various constructions of contacts, various metals or metallization of contacts, various extinguishing circuits (RC, LC, varistors, triacs ... but also an ordinary diode will help) are solved.
 

Quote

Better to use other modules if that costs more money.

 

 

 

I think I'm using the right solution. I searched in the market for a long time and got a 4-button switch. There are 4 microswitches with a common ground (they are not galvanically separated). SmartImplant modules are powered by 24VDC and are either located directly under the switch or are in the electrical cabinet.

 

Multiswitch:

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Cover:

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And I'll answer the next question straight away ... ripple, interference, capacity. I use shielded SFTP cabling. At the appropriate distance, the minimum ripple of the sources is interrupted, no further interference is induced through the shielding, and the capacity remains, which is also in order in this presentation.

 

 

So, ... all of this is still related to using SmartImplant in binary mode. Their outputs are usually connected via power relays, which then control the light circuits. I bypass the main ailments of HC3, where problems with updates, delays on Z-Wave, etc. are still being solved.

 

eM.

 

 

 

 

[Martin_N 146]

So I will continue with the original idea.
I originally wanted to use analog inputs in simple mode. But as I started thinking about it more and more, I did my physics homework and started counting voltage dividers.
So it will all depend on whether the SmartImplatn is used with an internal pull-up resistor. (Setting 20/21 option 4 or 5).

Note, I haven't tried it yet, but this is how it could work

 

v1 - I described V1 in the introductory post

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According to the calculations, the following voltage should be output at the IN input:
s1 Off, s2 Off => 8.2V
s1 ON, s1 Off => 4.8V
s1 Off, s2 ON => 6.2V
s1 ON, s2 ON => 4.1V

With a resolution of 0.1V on the inputs (basically 0.5V) it will be possible to reliably distinguish all combinations.
In addition, R1 and R2 will take care of the capacitance and I believe that any voltage ripple.

 

The power dissipation on this circuit in the worst case variant will be approx. 21mW / current approx. 1.7mA (I do not count SmartImplant's internal circuits). By that I meant that it wouldn't even have to heat it so much (after all, we will download some 2/3 of the input voltage and it must go to heat ...)

 

 

So many theories ...
When I have "unnecessary" one piece of SI, I'll do my own testing ... maybe it won't smoke

I hope something didn't escape me and I didn't make a fool of myself ...

 

 

eM.

 

 

EDIT - Warning about experiments:

You do all your experiments on your own T-shirt ... at your own risk.

1) I was not able to break the connection according to V2 and maybe it is in problems with the settings, see below:

2)It happened to me that SI could not go back to the previous state.
I then had to switch them to a monostable output function by configuration without the inputs / outputs being separate ... illogical non-function. Removal from HC3, reset to factory settings, helped.
Since I mainly use SI with combined inputs + outputs, I decided to reset. Now everything is working fine. Interestingly, in the default configuration, the inputs operate in monostable mode, but the bound outputs behave as in bistable mode without this being loaded in the configuration.
This is probably due to parameters 156 and 157, where 0 (disabled) for delayed return.
So there are two ways to reach the "original" state.

eM.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Martin_N

[FBerges 52]

Good Morning

It's nice to meet a kindred spirit.
Yes, all of the information, answers and assumptions are correct.
I see you know what you're doing
Switches, cabling and procedures are promising.
Sorry if I gave such an answer, but I didn't want to go into details and tried to make it understandable for everyone.
What you wrote is correct and I could expand it page by page like you probably do too.
Back to topic.
Unfortunately, I don't know the impedance of the input, nor is the capacity unknown to me.
Most of the time, analog inputs have a very high impedance and low capacitance.
Since the built-in chip is most likely a signal processor, you can assume that.
Up to now I have only connected a pressure switch with an analog output of 0-10V to the SmartImplant that worked as expected.
I use it to control the water pressure in our central heating.
Just try it out.
I always build things like that on a breadboard on which I bought cheaply.
I also bought an inexpensive power source from China.
As far as signal processing is concerned, this works with the HC3 with LUA and also as a block scene (analog query).
Even triggering works.
Greetings and a Happy New Year from Frank from Germany / Sauerland

[Martin_N 146]

Hi Frank...and All...

 

..yes, I also use a breadboard or "sparrow's nest" style for development.
It didn't work for me and I sacrificed one SI and gave it an "altar of development".

Behold .. here the proof:

 

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Everything works as it should, but there is one huge BUT.
Since you are referring to pooling, you need to define an extra pool interval (I set it to 5s and monitored the CPU load).
The minimum pool interval is 1s. A typical button press is about 50-150ms.
The controller must catch all this within the pool and then use the scene for processing.
Therefore, it is unusable for fast events.

If a slow process should be monitored (gate position, auxiliary contacts of circuit breakers, contactors ...) it can be a great helper.
Definitely not for switching lights.
It's a pity ... if analog limits could be defined as triggers for "Central Scenes" directly in the Smart Implant, it could reasonably be used further.
This is how we rely on an interval or a random question ...

 

 

I wish everyone a pleasant celebration and a beautiful and pleasant next year ...
eM.

[Martin_N 146]

Warning about experiments:

 

-----Added to the previous post with schemes-----

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eM.

[petergebruers 1,265]

Interesting experiment. Sensors are "as per spec" limited to report no faster than once per 30second. Switches not have this limitation. But IMHO implant is wrong product for the job. Try 

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 instead. It allows you to define > 8 binary inputs, or multilevel inputs, they do not require polling and report as fast as you wish (after debouncing). AFAIK CentralScene support was on the TODO list but Z-Uno does seem to support older scene control, eg "zunoSendToGroupScene(CTRL_GROUP_1, 3); // Activate scene #3". TBH I haven't tried SendToGroupScene yet... YMMV.

[Martin_N 146]

Thanks for the tips.
The point was to allow some "expansion" with common commercial products. Not everyone will want to program in C (in Arduino Ide).
I use ESP modules on Wi-Fi and there is no problem with reading the status, for example via HTTP.

I haven't tested Z-Uno yet. His strength is evident in the native support of Z-Wave.
I like the large range of supply voltage and their expression fits:

"Z-Uno is your «swiss knife» in Z-Wave world. It allows to make many different devices to complement your home automation."

 

If it reasonably supports sending the event to CentralScen, it will be an interesting product.
It is 10usd more expensive than SmartImplant, but with a larger number of entries, the savings are significant.
On the other hand, SI has a fixed design, function, interesting size, direct support of Fibaro ...

[SmartHomeEddy 878]

8 hours ago, petergebruers said:

Try 

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 instead.

(Nice module btw. I also use ESP, but if there is some kind of community around Z-Uno, it has a lot of possibilities)