12v ish over inputs

[Jamie 1]

Hi,

 

I am using the input to link to our alarm system that has a magnetic contact for the garage door. The idea been that I can work out if the door is open or not using this sensor. I assumed I would just be able to extend the circuit using implant as everything is normally closed by default. Everything tests ok, but the alarm system show an error, I believe its because the alarm system has voltage monitoring and is expecting 5v, the implant seems to be giving out 12v and thus throws the alarm into a error as it sees a voltage change, together it seems to be nearly 7 volts.. Anyone come across this? I would prefer not to have to run another sensor for  the door.

 

Thanks

Jamie

[RH_Dreambox 179]

@Jamie

If you are using the screw terminals of a Fibaro Smart Implant, you can consider them as a potential-free relay, i.e. there is no voltage on these terminals.

They only act as a mini-relay and if your portautomatic requires a voltage then you will need to connect this from a suitable voltage source.

But since you don't mention what to connect it to, it's very difficult to help you.

[Sjakie 137]

Perhaps it will be smart if you have a scheme of your alarm system. My system had a potentiaal free contact to use by another device/ system.

//Sjakie

[Tim__ 114]

Yes a diagram of your setup would help. You should be using IN1 (yellow wire) to sense the voltage on the garage door reed switch. Have a look at the "smartConnection with 2-wire 0-10V sensor" diagram in the smart implant manual. You don't connect the relay outputs (screw terminals) to anything.

 

You'll probably find that door open is 0 volts and door closed is a certain value less that 12V. This is to detect if an intruder tries to bypass the alarm wiring. Not sure how you it wired up currently but you may be triggering that protection.

[Jamie 1]

Hi @Sjakie and @Tim__, does this help?

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[Tim__ 114]

It does indeed help.  You've wired the smart implant (yellow and blue wires) in series with the reed switch, it should be wired in parallel.

[Martin_N 146]

@Jamie

Unfortunately, your involvement is wrong. For your purposes, you must ensure the galvanic separation of the alarm system and SmartImplant. You have two options:
1) Connect reed relays (magnetic contact) to In1 and GND SmartImplant. Use the OUT1 output of the Smart Implant and connect it instead of the originally used language relay directly to the original input of the alarm system (zone and com).
2) Use an externally powered relay that you will control with a reed relay (magnetic contact) and two sets of contacts. One set will be in In1 SI and one set will be in the alarm system.

In both cases, remember that the contact is closed when the sensor is at rest (door closed).
In the case of sensors connected to the alarm system, it is necessary to use a so-called balancing resistor (EOL), which defines the idle / fault-free state of the measuring circuit, depending on the system settings.

 

eM.

[Tim__ 114]

Hi @Martin_N, I'm interested in your thoughts on needing to separate the circuits. If the Smart Implant is simply measuring the voltage of the alarm circuit, my thinking was that it would draw negligible current and therefore not interfere with the alarm.

 

@Jamie have you tried the implant in parallel?

[Martin_N 146]

@Tim__ @Jamie

It is so that each device, SmartImplant and Alarm system uses its own "measuring voltage". So you can't just use two different state detection systems in parallel.
It is possible to use 0-10V detection on SmartImplant by combining GND SI and COM Alarm System, but you do not get immediate quick responses, see my experiments:

You can use the connection from the manual for Smart Impmant, on page 9.

I adjusted the connection, see the pictures:

 

 

 

 

Please login or register to see this spoiler.

 

 

 

As I wrote in a previous post, using version 1 is easy. In addition, galvanic isolation does not cause problems with the two measuring voltages.
Version 2 with added relay is rather suitable where you really need to galvanically separate the circuits before connecting to SI (for example, when connecting to other systems, sensing motor limit switches, .. etc ...).
(for example: 

or:

 

 

eM.

[Tim__ 114]

Thanks for the explanation @Martin_N.  If I understand correctly, the issue with my suggestion is because there is an internal pull up resistor on IN1. This resistor is required because I had described a "2-wire 0-10V sensor" scenario, as shown in the Smart Implant Manual, diagram 5.  The resistor is activated by changing parameter 20. This resistor will however create a voltage divider with the alarm circuitry, which is detected by the alarm and causes an error message.  Your suggestion is an extension of the manual diagrams 1 and 2, and avoids the voltage divider problem.

 

So @Jamie , back to you ... give Martin's setup a go, it should work.  Let us know!

[Jamie 1]

On 1/22/2022 at 5:36 AM, Tim__ said:

It does indeed help.  You've wired the smart implant (yellow and blue wires) in series with the reed switch, it should be wired in parallel.

Hi Tim, I did wire in in parallel to start with and was getting a similar problem, My theory was that I just need to monitor a NC circuit for when its NO, the voltage threw me as. I will digest the rest of your posts and report back  Thanks

[Jamie 1]

Hi @Martin_N, thanks for your response. I had seen those articles, but at first I had dismissed them as I was only dealing with (what I thought) and NC circuit. I has assumed when the garage door was shut and the circuit was closed that this would be the same as wiring in parallel. What I hadn't taken into account was that the alarm system expects certain voltages, even from a reed switch. As i need to use one of the outputs for the garage door release I think I will have to try and wire up the door sensor with EOL resistors, new territory for me

 

[Sjakie 137]

As said before I am not a electrician.

In my previous system I think it was in serie and not paralel.

Voltage was on the equipment and the paralel wire was potential free. System was NC. if somewhere door/window/pir  or open / breached it opend the line and if alarm was set >>>alarm sounds

I hope it helps.

//Sjakie

[Martin_N 146]

@Jamie

Your thinking about connecting an alarm system with EOL resistors is correct. Some (most) systems require it. You can then see which resistors you will use for the given system configuration.
If you use my second image with EOL, you only use one output on the SI and you have the option to use the other to open the garage door.
Remember that in alarm systems, the idle state of the protected device is defined as closed (NC). Therefore, when the door is opened, the reed relay opens. The SI output mode needs to be adapted to this.

Caution, if you have an existing magnetic contact installed and you do not see its EOL balancing resistors anywhere, they may be connected abnormally somewhere further or directly on the control panel in the alarm system. I recommend taking a multimeter, finding the appropriate wires in the alarm system from the reed relay and measuring them. The resistance of the circuit in closed and open doors will give you a clear answer.
If so, you can include SI by just omitting the EOL resistors - the second picture but without the EOL resistors (these will probably be somewhere along the way).

Remember that a properly installed alarm system has its own tamper protection, so the opening of its boxes may be indicated by a siren or transmission to the security service.

eM.