Staircase light automation without load line in same place as live wire

[Matthew Davies 0]

I have a staircase lighting system where 2 x 3-way (SPDT) wall switches can operate the lights, and I'd like to automate the lights, to turn them off if accidentally left on, etc etc.

 

I searched in the forums and found the diagram below. The problem I have is the load wire (the red wire going from L on the right hand side switch to S1, plus the grey wire) is not available in the box where I would need to install the Switch, and running that cable would be a major hassle in my house. 

 

Is there a way to use a Fibaro Single Switch 2 (or other Fibaro device) to automate without having that wire available? For example, is there a device which would work on the 2 outputs of the first wall switch (the 2 red lines going from left to right) to automate the lights?

 

Thanks!!

 

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[Tim__ 113]

Unfortunately for the stair switch to operate correctly you need to pick up the circuitry after the second switch. You could try installing the Fibaro Switch behind the lighting point instead. You may need to extend an Active wire to that location (brown wire), however if you have a ceiling space you should be able to do this with a bit of fiddling.

[Tomasz Spaleniak 12]

I think, that in this case the best solution will be use Zigbee Switch (AP-SMTBreaker02-1CH) which manage separately ligh and signal from Wall Plugs.

 

This is connecting schema:

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This device should be install in the place where you have power and cables to light. Wall Plug can be connected as single, stairs or in others combination - the most important is to have two cable from the last wall plug, which are not L. This device great manage stairs light switching on via device or wall plug - all works as you want

 

On the below schema you can see me usage of this device

 

[Martin_N 143]

@Matthew Davies

What prevents you from installing a module under the second switch? It is essential that you install the module to the switch, where the wire for the lighting originally left.
As a last resort, the module can be installed directly to the lighting, but you will also need a permanent L phase.

TIM already wrote this.. with a little effort and luck, he might be able to pull this off.
Look under the switches again. If you have this connection (stair system), one switch goes directly to the light bulb. You can put the module under this switch according to your scheme. The only reason you'd want to put the module somewhere else is if you don't have the space under the switch, or Z-Wave won't reach there. But then you won't solve it.

A possible solution: replace the stair switches with buttons, which frees up one wire of the connection between the switching devices.

 

[Matthew Davies 0]

Thanks everyone. No short cut, by the sound of it.

[Matthew Davies 0]

4 hours ago, Martin_N said:

@Matthew Davies

What prevents you from installing a module under the second switch? It is essential that you install the module to the switch, where the wire for the lighting originally left.
As a last resort, the module can be installed directly to the lighting, but you will also need a permanent L phase.

TIM already wrote this.. with a little effort and luck, he might be able to pull this off.
Look under the switches again. If you have this connection (stair system), one switch goes directly to the light bulb. You can put the module under this switch according to your scheme. The only reason you'd want to put the module somewhere else is if you don't have the space under the switch, or Z-Wave won't reach there. But then you won't solve it.

A possible solution: replace the stair switches with buttons, which frees up one wire of the connection between the switching devices.

 

Under the second switch I don’t think there is a permanent live and neutral and also like you mentioned, I don’t think my zwave network will reach there. 
Thanks for the reply. I’ve concluded I will need to run a wire to make it work. Unfortunately the stairs are 3 floors high so that’s a bit scary ?. Might go for smart bulbs instead. 

[VladoV007 0]

Matthew, thanks for nice schema with 2 stair switches and Fibaro Switch module. I am looking 1 year for the solution of stair switches, with the same problem of missing "L"-wire at the last stair switch.

 

You are right, you need one "L"ive wire behind the 2 stair switches, to POWER the Fibaro module. Exactly according your schema.

 

Notice 1

Your schema is named in Fibaro docu as "3-wire" solution.

But, you can install the Fibaro module without "N"-wire (blue in your schema), it is called "2-wire solution".

I know, it is not your solution, you still need an "L"-wire.

 

Notice 2

As well as the Fibaro Switch, you could use a Fibaro Dimmer: it makes the same work, plus you can dim the light (with dimmable bulbs) from value 0 (off) to 99 (full light) - programmatically, in an appropriate Scene, according of a part of the day (morning/day/evening/night).

 

Partial solution of your problem

Without "L"-wire at the last stair switch, I have found a partial solution, wenn you add the Fibaro Switch module BEFORE the first stair switch.

You need only "L"-in and "L"-out wires ("N" wire not needed, i.e. the "2-wire solution"), which will switch on/off the power for the stair switches. I have installed it yesterday with Fibaro Dimmer, it works.

 

In this solution I can programmatically in a Scene automatically manage the light (on/off in case of Switch, Level 0-99 in case of Dimmer) through the whole day. Nice on this solution is e.g., that when I need the light through the night, the Scene presets the "low light" with value of 10, which will not wake me up, as one flash with value 99 in the eyes would do.. (using in the hallway) 😎

 

In this solution I can manage the light brightness level manually too, e.g. with the app Yubii from Nice/Fibaro. BUT, only when the stair switch is on. I cann still make more light, when I am reading - or less light, when eating - or remotely switch the light, when went to bed (using in the kitchen).

 

"Features" of this solution

I can NOT remotely switch on the light with Fibaro module, when the stair switch is once OFF.

Similarly, when Fibaro module switch is OFF, then the stair switches can not switch the light on.

Both features are consequence of serial binding of module and stair switches.

 

Because the stair switches are positioned after the Fibaro module, these switches can not control the module itself (its S1/S2 connectors). But, one can add another one (momentary) switch to control the module itself ☺️. In this case would be the remote control unnecessary, but this case only makes sense, when using the Fibaro dimmable module.

So, with the momentary switch I can direct control the light britness/intensity and with the stair switches i can direct control the light on/off.

Edited January 2, 2023 by VladoV007