Smoke sensor and European EN-14604 standard

[yassinex 1]

Hi,

Do the new Smoke Sensor comply with the European EN-14604 standard ?

My insurance compagny said it's mandatory now ( at least in France ).

Thank you.

[ Added: 2014-01-14, 10:54 ]

@Fibaro :

Well, no answer means it's not ?

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I really like the design and the innovation, but if ever a fire starts, and I need to call my insurance, I can not be refund because of regulation....

Anyway, if I'm not wrong, , do you plan to be compliant with the European regulation ?

Thanks alot Fibaro for "any" answer.

[123aanthony 0]

+1 It is a show stopper for me as well until it's certified for french regulation

Too bad i'd loved to have 7 or 8 in me house

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[Poppy 0]

In France the detector MUST be certified to be sold (

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)

Birba says at CES that the sensor certification is in progress

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So i think there no problem with the sensor.

[123aanthony 0]

Great news, i look foward to it

Thanks.

[Lauri 6]

Fibaro smoke sensor:

Certification: EMC 2004/108/EC - R & TTE 199/5/WE

[MrGoose 0]

+1 for me. It's not only a French issue (though I am), you can bet European insurance companies won't pay back if smoke detectors are not standard compliant.

[ Added: 2014-01-15, 12:01 ]

Fibaro smoke sensor:

Certification: EMC 2004/108/EC - R & TTE 199/5/WE

This has nothing to see Lauri, these are EMC and radio regulations.

[Lauri 6]

Yeah, my bad...

[stevenvd 51]

So is that an official no for: EN 14604 ?

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[ Added: 2014-01-23, 10:18 ]

Fibaro's response:

Dear Sir,

Sorry but we do not support this standard.

Regards,

[MrGoose 0]

meaning:

it is a nice looking device but can't really use it for safety.

I do agree, useless for me too. I'm disappointed.

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[ Added: 2014-01-23, 12:05 ]

Is anyone aware of a zwave smoke detector that supports this standard ?

[Guest Fidziu]

Honourable Members in accordance with EU regulations regarding the rules governing the smoke detectors exist several standards .

Product offered by Fibaro smoke sensor is working in accordance with the standards of EN 54-5 and EN 54-7, and they relate to the Points detectors.

The EN14604 standard describes the autonomous sensors that may be present in the building spontaneously and are not associated with any system .

Because these sensors are the most popular ( you can buy them in most supermarkets ) standard is the most popular and the largest number of the provisions refers to this standard.

The standards are nearly identical, and if we wanted to „bribe trick" this standard could be "properly„ certified.

Although the difference is really negligible is due to the high quality we are trying to present in our products, we have decided that we will not do so as 90 % of the producers in the market because our sensor hasnt such a loud siren and consequently declare tah FIBAR not meet the standards, and will not be "tricking” just to out certification by force.

The difference due to which our device is not qualified for the EN 14604 standard is a speaker in the device that meets the EN 14604 must seem sound level 85db at 3m from the unit. Our product seems sound volume is ranging from 78-88db no more diferences at all.

[MrGoose 0]

Many thanks Fidziu, first to eventually answer, and for your clear and honest response, now I do better understand.

I had a quick look to the two standards you're referring to, and there is not that much difference, indeed.

However, the biggest problem we're pointing at in this thread, is on insurance level. As a test, I just sent an email to my insurance company (worldwide group), to tell them I found EN-54-5 and EN-54-7 compliant devices, but not EN-14604. I just asked them if my insurance would still cover me, in case of fire, if my sensors doesn't cope with this standard, which is mandatory in France. To better understand why I'm so strict on regulation level, you need to know that my main heating system is a wood stove, and I have another fireplace in the living room. I very recently renewed my insurance contract to be better covered in case of fire, due to my heating system or fireplace. And this is where my insurance company told me I'll need to get smoke sensor, as it would accelerate the process in case of fire. Also they reminded me this sensors will be mandatory in 2015, otherwise I wouldn't be covered anymore. They didn't mention the EN 14604 standard though, thus the email I sent them.

By the way, I'm also currently checking if a company is allowed to sell a non EN 14604 device in my country, because to me it sounds like a non sense, as the product doesn't cope with local regulation.

Kind regards

[FredrikN 0]

MrGoose, if its 'just' for insurance purposes, why not just get one certified unit and the rest Fibaro to have everything connected?

[MrGoose 0]

MrGoose, if its 'just' for insurance purposes, why not just get one certified unit and the rest Fibaro to have everything connected?

ah, ah, I really like that one FredrikN, though it's not the first time I see this answer on a forum about this topic.

I would answer in another way: I will find an EN-14604 compliant one, with contact on it, and will link it to my HC2 with a zwave module

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I don't see the point of having a smoke sensor which do not comply with regulation, if I need to have another one, which will not be connected. It makes no sense to me, and according to the the comments I saw on other forum, I'm not the only one to think that way.

[stevenvd 51]

Thank you for your response Fidziu!

@MrGoose

The Everspring smoke detector is NEN 14604 compliant

[MrGoose 0]

Thank you for your response Fidziu!

@MrGoose

The Everspring smoke detector is NEN 14604 compliant

Thanks Stevenvd, I'll have a look at it

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[FredrikN 0]

MrGoose, in general I agree with you. I was just trying to suggest a pragmatic approach.

To Fibaro - I checked and it seems the EN 14604 is mandatory in Sweden as well. I don't see why a smoke detector should not comply with this just because it's part of a system. Please explain that logic.

The Swedish Institute of Standards also suggest that EN 14604 is mandatory for CE marking.

[MrGoose 0]

The Swedish Institute of Standards also suggest that EN 14604 is mandatory for CE marking.

No worries FredrikN, I do understand

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I just checked here, it also the same for France, EN-14604 compliance is mandatory for CE marking.

[123aanthony 0]

Hello,

I can't access to the details of the EN 14604 because of the price

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/emoticons/default_laugh.png" alt=":lol:" /> , but if the only issue is the lack of 3db at 3m depending on how they measure and allowed frequency for the alarm it shouldn't be much of a problem to comply just by tuning the device ?

Anyhow it's a no go for me too until i have the approval of my insurance company, too bad for the full fibaro house system

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[stevenvd 51]

I checked with my ensurance company. they said they don't really care if I have smoke detectors. They just look at how / why the fire started. The smoke sensors are only there to better protect and help to detect it earlier they said.

[hvb83 1]

Everybody is very worried about norms for the smoke detectors, but I've never heard anybody think out loud about the dimmer and relay modules complying to any standards.

With a smoke detector in my opinion, it's mainly if somebody gets seriously hurt that the insurance company will try to deny liability. A smoke detector in itself can't start a fire, now can it?

For the dimmer and actuator modules however, you have low- and high-voltage next to each other, the connections aren't very solid either and descriptions on installing it in a safe way are rather minimal. I'm no electrician, but I know low and high voltage aren't supposed to be in the same tube, and I'm pretty sure that for instance the Dutch NEN1010 also does not agree with low and high voltage being in the same junction box...

In other words, I'm not sure these modules can be connected in a way that complies to European or national standards.

That CAN start a fire and in case of a fire I'm sure the insurance company will pay extra attention to the way you have installed your modules...