Smoke sensor and European EN-14604 standard

[kiwi 2]

Thank you for your response Fidziu!

@MrGoose

The Everspring smoke detector is NEN 14604 compliant

Thanks Stevenvd, I'll have a look at it

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I had such smoke detectors. They have to issues :

1- it is * bigger than fibaro's ones

2- They doesn't wake up at all and are sensitive to smoke that are really stupid (like when you are cooking a steak for example, even if the sensor is *VERY* *FAR* than the kitchen).

Also it's stupidy is soo good that the rings like there is a fire when the battery has to be changed.

Really bad design, bad stuff..

If such smoke detectors are EN-14604 compliant, I think this "standard" is * brain damaged.

[stevenvd 51]

let's not argue on the standards, I think we all agree on that part

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For the dimmers and NEN1010. Pretty sure it is not oke. But let's face it, what will you do without them?

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[UrSv 6]

I checked with my ensurance company. they said they don't really care if I have smoke detectors. They just look at how / why the fire started. The smoke sensors are only there to better protect and help to detect it earlier they said.

The same is true for me. My insurance company doesn't care if I have detectors. That is of course not to say that in the future there might be a requirement. For now I really don't care at all if the Fibaro sensors are compliant or not as it makes no difference for me.

[hvb83 1]

I won't loose any sleep over it either, the norms are there and it's not as if the insurance company can deny a claim over these modules being not according to the norms (at least in The Netherlands they're not the law, very confusing...). But if you've installed them yourself, you have to be very sure that you don't make any mistakes leading up to that fire.

So everybody who's arguing about the smoke detectors not being according to a certain norm is very confident that he didn't make any mistakes while installing their dimmers?

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[123aanthony 0]

Lets assume that i didn't install my dimmer properly and it start a fire, after the first January 2015 if i don't have a smoke sensor or if it doesn't comply to the European norm i will be legally responsible of everything (no coverage of my insurance and perhaps facing justice) not because of the wrong install but because of the lack of certificate...

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So i understand it is not an issue for all of us but i assume it is for a wide percentage of the french customers.

[robmac 173]

Product offered by Fibaro smoke sensor is working in accordance with the standards of EN 54-5 and EN 54-7, and they relate to the Points detectors.

Hi,

so will or is HC2 certified to relevant EN54 sections?

are there any EN54 z-wave compliant sounders?

or

is the only way to make an installation comply to standards to wire the fibaro sensors to an approved fire panel?

[yassinex 1]

Man, It's not compliant

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Now I have to found someone who will buy my 6 Smoke Sensors here in France, what a problem ! I'm loosing money

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How could it be possible to make such a good device like this, and decide that's not important to be compliant with european régulations because of a poor speakers !!! My tests reports 62-78 db....

It's all about régulation and responsibility and not about quality. Don't forget, It's not a module like others, it's about life sécurity .....

Now; I'm really confused.

BTW: Even the HC2 GUI nor the iOS application support the BlackBox (not even the temp indicator).

A very not finished product. I 'll really think twice before buying a Fibaro product in the future !!!!

[robmac 173]

I think you are getting out before we have a clear answer.

It is not compliant as a standalone fire alarm.

I am still waiting to hear from Fibaro to confirm how it can be part of an EN54 alarm system.

If HC2 was complaint to EN54 and there is also a compliant siren it all would work.

[JanJoh 1]

Everybody is very worried about norms for the smoke detectors, but I've never heard anybody think out loud about the dimmer and relay modules complying to any standards.

...or even better: How many users have installed the insert dimmers/switches themselves despite that being illegal in most countries, and quite frankly can make your home Insurance null and void completely

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[MrGoose 0]

An update for my French colleagues: I received the answer from my insurance company about the smoke detector and mandatory regulations:

N’étant pas capable de répondre à votre question, j’ai pris contact directement avec les ACM.

Pour le moment, nous ne demandons pas de détecteurs de fumée.

Sachez cependant, que les détecteurs devront respecter les normes NF réglementaires.

So smoke detectors are not mandatory yet (01/2015, that we already know), but forget about any Zwave smoke detector, none of them got the French standard !

[robmac 173]

illegal in most countries, and quite frankly can make your home Insurance null and void completely <>

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What countries is it illegal in?

I don't think that some insurance would be void just because a homeowner installed the device it would be void if a qualified workman made a mess also.

The clause in mine is

"Defects and faults

Any loss or damage arising from defective design, defective materials, or faulty

workmanship. "

So do you trust a contractor more than yourself? + Could you recover your loss from them if it went wrong?

interesting reading but we are way off topic now

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[hvb83 1]

With that quote it looks as I made that statement. But to respond on this (and I'm working with contractors every day): I would never trust a contractor on this more than myself. Not without proper checking anyway. These modules aren't very hard to install. If you use your sense, then it shouldn't go wrong.

Of course an amateur that doesn't know the first thing about what he's doing can be very dangerous when it comes to electricity. But I've seen professionals do the craziest things too, even if there are lifes at stake (executing a fire alarm system without proper cables) and if they are liable in case of a mistake (leaving life power cables just laying there...). Some of them take that risk and up-front you never know if you have that one...

During large renovations management on site takes up 5% of the building costs. On 10mln projects, that's quite a hefty amount of money. But even though building owners don't like to spend money that they feel is unneccessary, they always hire someone to describe the specifications up front and to do management on site.

But perhaps my point of view towards contractors is just a bit one-sided.

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[JanJoh 1]

[quote name="JanJoh

What countries is it illegal in?

I don't think that some insurance would be void just because a homeowner installed the device it would be void if a qualified workman made a mess also.

In sweden it is illegal for anyone not properly qualified to modify fixed installations.

As a layman you are allowed to replace a faulty wall switch/wall socket' date=' if you have the necessary knowledge and you may only replace it with an equivialent device.

You may not, as a layman, modify the installation (and yes, even replace a wall switch with a dimmer qualifies as modifying). Even replacing a wall switch with a momentary dito qualifies as modification.

And yes, I can vouch for that Insurance companies have indeed refused payment in cases where the above has been breached.

[ Added: 2014-02-03, 10:03 ]

So do you trust a contractor more than yourself? + Could you recover your loss from them if it went wrong?

Well, I do not have to trust a Contractor as I have the required education and work related experience

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However, if something did go wrong with a Contractors installation, my Insurance would have no ground to deny coverage even if the Contractor has been grossly negligent.

In case of (gross) negligence, my Insurance Company would in their turn probably try to process against the Contractor. But that is not my headache.

[robmac 173]

That is interesting.

A lot of contractors like to say that it is also the case in the UK but it is more complex than that. Some changes are allowable but others need either building regs approval and inspection or work done by a qualified contractor.

Not convinced that UK insurance is so clear cut.

[rantta 2]

Finland is much like Sweden (as in many other things too), here it's illegal also to install electical stuff "under the hood" without licence.

[kiwi 2]

Finland is much like Sweden (as in many other things too), here it's illegal also to install electical stuff "under the hood" without licence.

Wow... So hard. I am really lucky to be in France

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[Dalle1985 16]

Here in Denmark the modules fall into a sort of black hole between two sides of the local regulations. You are allowed to install new switches (and change between switches and dimmers) but you are not allowed to modify the power cabling. So I asked for guidance with the authorities and the answer was as clear as mud. "An instructed person is qualified to install switches and dimmers into sockets, but if this is to be seen as a modification, a certified person must verify the modification". They don't want to distinguish between installation and modification. So since i don't have the certification (i have the training though) I've concluded that it's a simple install and if something should go wrong, I'll stick to that claim as I haven't changed any "high" voltage wiring.

And as long as the component is CE marked, it is approved for installation. There are lots of components consisting of both low and highvoltage components (any power transformer and most home electronics) which are CE-marked.

As to the smoke detectors, I feel more safe with the connected devices and a big strobing siren than cheap supermarket smoke detectors with iffy functioning. My insurance company has no requirements and the most important thing anyway, is that we feel safe - and we do that with the fibaro units. My only complaint is that they don't activate each other, but that has been fixed with an external siren.