Fibaro wall Plug

[ivalentinov 0]

Hi guys, first i want to make sure that everybody understands that this post is not about bashing Fibaro or whining or asking for refund, i do not want a refund

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

I have a very small test setup, i plan to automate my new house, but first i thought it would be a good idea to test a micro-setup in my apartment to better understand the Z-Wave and Fibaro products.

One of the controllers is a Fibaro Wall Plug (really beautiful small thingy) i have hooked one air cleaner and a microwave to it, actually the microwave is there because i don't have a free wall plug, the main idea was to be able to start and stop the air cleaner when there is nobody home.

- The air cleaner has max power of 47W, that is when it is at turbo power, normally it works at the lowest possible setting that consumes less than 10W.

- The microwave is max 700W, but i hardly use it.

I never reach 2KW at this outlet (and is confirmed by the consumption panel in HC2).

Last night i was pre-heating some food in the microwave, i heard the familiar ding from the microwave and 5 sec later there was a loud sound from the same direction followed by power outage in the room.

When i unplugged the wall socket it was black and kind of melted, so obviously it is not working.

My question is: Did i do something wrong, did i overload it by hooking ~1000W to it, or is there some appliances that are not supposed to be used with the wall plug? Is it really safe to have it in your house?

Any opinions are welcome even more from Fibaro.

I am kind of disapointed with Fibaro at the moment and i really don't know if i should I invest in Fibaro devices

Please login or register to see this attachment.

[Krikroff 199]

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_confused.gif" alt=":-?" /> Can you show us the socket that was connected over?

I use a lot of wallplug in my home and I have no problems

[deanrparry 19]

Bloody hell that looks safe! Wonder what fibaro will say?

[Guest bozman]

Ok now i'm official worried about these plugs...

Is this why these plugs are banned from the Swedish market?

[ivalentinov 0]

Guys please don't jump to any conclusions i am not saying it is not safe, and yet i don't think that i did anything wrong.

I would really like someone that understands this matter to comment.

EDIT ******

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_confused.gif" alt=":-?" /> Can you show us the socket that was connected over?

I use a lot of wallplug in my home and I have no problems

Krikoff i did not see your post at first, i am not at home at the moment, but as soon as i am home i will post images of the coupler and the wallsocket

EDIT 2 **********

I attached the plug that the fibaro wall plug was attached to (a bit dusty but no burn traces on it) and the power strip that was used to connect the microwave and the air cleaner. Both of them work without any problem at the moment.

Please login or register to see this attachment.

Please login or register to see this attachment.

[Lauri 6]

It would be good to understand what went wrong... Im using 2 wall plugs in everyday life.

A) One is connected to my TV and other things near this.. the power consumption is about 300w maximum.

B) Is connected directly to my kettle, 1800w and I use it every day at least 3-4times maybe even more.

And both doesnt show any signs of heat/melt, so this couldnt be overload in your case.

Also I have a customer who uses wall plugs to control electric radiators and one is 2,5kw so it is just as much as Fibaro says it is okay.. also no problems.

Might it be that microwave oven generates somekind of "bad" feedback to the plug... which causes this?

[fuuss 25]

I use more than 10 Plugs at home , never had a Problem , I don't know what happend there . I had just one problem with one Plug , it just didn't switch everytime i gave the order , so send it back for replacement . But this looks bad ,

[speedy 64]

Ok now i'm official worried about these plugs...

Is this why these plugs are banned from the Swedish market?

Yes and no, this could be one of the reasons.

I am not going into detail about what exactly happend to this plug as I don't know but,

a reason for the plug being banned in Sweden is that this situation could occur.

Again, we don't know what happened here.

[JanJoh 1]

Also I have a customer who uses wall plugs to control electric radiators and one is 2,5kw so it is just as much as Fibaro says it is okay.. also no problems.

Might it be that microwave oven generates somekind of "bad" feedback to the plug... which causes this?

A "radiator" as well as a "Kettle" are both "perfect resistive" loads. They have no inductive nor capacitive properties.

But anything with an electric motor, or switched power supply or fluorescent tubes, or electical transformer is _not_ a perfect resistive load, and behaves quite differently.

The max rating on the plugs are for perfect resistive loads. You should NOT put a 2000W motor to a plug even if it has a 2000W rating.

I will not get into a mathematical argument on how much inductive load you could/should use on a wall plug as that requires specific data on the load in question and exact design specifications on the plug. In other words: Guesswork.

But I personally would not use a Wall Plug on any kind of inductive load over one fifth of the rated maximum of the plug given what Elsäkerhetsverket wrote in their report when the product was banned from sales in Sweden.

In other words: A microwave? Hell no

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

[speedy 64]

Also I have a customer who uses wall plugs to control electric radiators and one is 2,5kw so it is just as much as Fibaro says it is okay.. also no problems.

Might it be that microwave oven generates somekind of "bad" feedback to the plug... which causes this?

A "radiator" as well as a "Kettle" are both "perfect resistive" loads. They have no inductive nor capacitive properties.

But anything with an electric motor, or switched power supply or fluorescent tubes, or electical transformer is _not_ a perfect resistive load, and behaves quite differently.

The max rating on the plugs are for perfect resistive loads. You should NOT put a 2000W motor to a plug even if it has a 2000W rating.

I will not get into a mathematical argument on how much inductive load you could/should use on a wall plug as that requires specific data on the load in question and exact design specifications on the plug. In other words: Guesswork.

But I personally would not use a Wall Plug on any kind of inductive load over one fifth of the rated maximum of the plug given what Elsäkerhetsverket wrote in their report when the product was banned from sales in Sweden.

In other words: A microwave? Hell no

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Well, thats not quite true..

The wall plug does support ALL loads and inductive/capacitive up to 8A (about 1800W) according to the manual

3000W on pure resistive loads for a short period of time.

Check attached image.

And what Elsäkerhetsverket wrote about the plug had nothing to do with inductive loads or loads att all.

Those where other problems that can occur at any type of load.

Please login or register to see this attachment.

[JanJoh 1]

Well, thats not quite true..

The wall plug does support ALL loads and inductive/capacitive up to 8A (about 1800W) according to the manual

3000W on pure resistive loads for a short period of time.

Check attached image.

And what Elsäkerhetsverket wrote about the plug had nothing to do with inductive loads or loads att all.

Those where other problems that can occur at any type of load.

Yes, the manual says so. But I prefer to trust reality over a manual

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_wink.png" alt=";)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Yes, the problems may occur with any kind of load, but a purly resistive load will not cause any non-sinusioidal behaviour, nor any voltage spikes or flyback behaviour. An inductive load certainly will cause this, begging the only qestion to be one of "How large?"

I am willing to bet that i could cause a wall plug to fail by switching and older microwave or 1500 w fluro-ramp a number of times. I am equally sure that i could switch a purly resistive load until the cows come home.

[speedy 64]

Well, thats not quite true..

The wall plug does support ALL loads and inductive/capacitive up to 8A (about 1800W) according to the manual

3000W on pure resistive loads for a short period of time.

Check attached image.

And what Elsäkerhetsverket wrote about the plug had nothing to do with inductive loads or loads att all.

Those where other problems that can occur at any type of load.

Yes, the manual says so. But I prefer to trust reality over a manual

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_wink.png" alt=";)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Yes, the problems may occur with any kind of load, but a purly resistive load will not cause any non-sinusioidal behaviour, nor any voltage spikes or flyback behaviour. An inductive load certainly will cause this, begging the only qestion to be one of "How large?"

I am willing to bet that i could cause a wall plug to fail by switching and older microwave or 1500 w fluro-ramp a number of times. I am equally sure that i could switch a purly resistive load until the cows come home.

So this begs the question, what is reality?

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" />

The reality is that in the manual it states that you can use this plug for any load up to 8A.

And if its in the manual then it must perform like the manual says, otherwise the manual or pruduct must be changed accordingly.

If your plug doesn't work as advertised then something is wrong with your plug / manual.

[JanJoh 1]

The reality is that in the manual it states that you can use this plug for any load up to 8A.

Measured how? The manual does indeed state 8Amps, but it also mentions "watts" in a number of places.

Reactive power?

True RMS?

Complex Power?

Aparent Power?

And, of course, what Phi are we using as a reference? A perfect "1" never seen outside a lab? 0.7?

AC Power is a tricky thing

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

[speedy 64]

The reality is that in the manual it states that you can use this plug for any load up to 8A.

Measured how? The manual does indeed state 8Amps, but it also mentions "watts" in a number of places.

Reactive power?

True RMS?

Complex Power?

Aparent Power?

And, of course, what Phi are we using as a reference? A perfect "1" never seen outside a lab? 0.7?

AC Power is a tricky thing

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

And all that doesn't matter in this case.

It says Watt so that's what we use.

And if you connect it to a load that is not resistive then use max 8A or 1,5kW.

Thats it.

Its a product for consumer use not electritians and thats what the manual is for.

So no need to complicate things

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" />

[JanJoh 1]

The reality is that in the manual it states that you can use this plug for any load up to 8A.

Measured how? The manual does indeed state 8Amps, but it also mentions "watts" in a number of places.

Reactive power?

True RMS?

Complex Power?

Aparent Power?

And, of course, what Phi are we using as a reference? A perfect "1" never seen outside a lab? 0.7?

AC Power is a tricky thing

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

And all that doesn't matter in this case.

It says Watt so that's what we use.

And if you connect it to a load that is not resistive then use max 8A or 1,5kW.

Thats it.

Its a product for consumer use not electritians and thats what the manual is for.

So no need to complicate things

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" />

Actually, since the manual is inconclusive, we must complicate it.

8A Reactive with a Low Phi would spell disaster quite quickly I am afraid.

Again, to protect your product against such problems you use physical separation and.... Oh, wait... That was one of the things that the wall plug got slammed for by Elsäkerhetsverket.

[j.nowacki 5]

ivalentinov, please read my PM so we can start warranty procedure. Once we get your Wall Plug, our engineers will examine it to state what factor could have caused it.

[speedy 64]

The reality is that in the manual it states that you can use this plug for any load up to 8A.

Measured how? The manual does indeed state 8Amps, but it also mentions "watts" in a number of places.

Reactive power?

True RMS?

Complex Power?

Aparent Power?

And, of course, what Phi are we using as a reference? A perfect "1" never seen outside a lab? 0.7?

AC Power is a tricky thing

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

And all that doesn't matter in this case.

It says Watt so that's what we use.

And if you connect it to a load that is not resistive then use max 8A or 1,5kW.

Thats it.

Its a product for consumer use not electritians and thats what the manual is for.

So no need to complicate things

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" />

Actually, since the manual is inconclusive, we must complicate it.

8A Reactive with a Low Phi would spell disaster quite quickly I am afraid.

Again, to protect your product against such problems you use physical separation and.... Oh, wait... That was one of the things that the wall plug got slammed for by Elsäkerhetsverket.

I really understand what you are saying but, i say its not inconclusive

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" />

The limit of 8A / 1,5kW is set there by Fibaro to be on the safe side using non resistive loads.

And if there is a limit then the product MUST be able to handle these claims by law.

No matter what cosFi you throw at it.

Otherwise it wouldn't and shouldn't be there.

[ivalentinov 0]

ivalentinov, please read my PM so we can start warranty procedure. Once we get your Wall Plug, our engineers will examine it to state what factor could have caused it.

I just answered your PM.

Guys thanx for the contribution - what i understood is that i am probably too stupid for this product. I barely understand what are you talking about

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

[JanJoh 1]

I really understand what you are saying but, i say its not inconclusive

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" />

The limit of 8A / 1,5kW is set there by Fibaro to be on the safe side using non resistive loads.

And if there is a limit then the product MUST be able to handle these claims by law.

No matter what cosFi you throw at it.

Otherwise it wouldn't and shouldn't be there.

Well, by law it must also pass the test from the regulating bodies to go on sale. It did not.

Therefor I submit that e wall plug is not guaranteed to live up to the claims in the manual.

It should. But it does not.

[ Added: 2014-10-07, 17:57 ]

ivalentinov, please read my PM so we can start warranty procedure. Once we get your Wall Plug, our engineers will examine it to state what factor could have caused it.

I just answered your PM.

Guys thanx for the contribution - what i understood is that i am probably too stupid for this product. I barely understand what are you talking about

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Let's try it this way then.

Let's say you have a wire that is strong enough to hold exactly 2500kg.

Let's now say you instead hang an elephant that is asleep, but still weighing exactly 2500kg. All is well. But when the elephant wakes up and starts to flail around. The string will eventually break.

It's pretty much the same with electricity. A kettle / radiator is "sleeping elephant" but any inductive load is an awake elephant. The phi factor is a bit like the amount of panic the elephant feels at being suspended.

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

[speedy 64]

Let's try it this way then.

Let's say you have a wire that is strong enough to hold exactly 2500kg.

Let's now say you instead hang an elephant that is asleep, but still weighing exactly 2500kg. All is well. But when the elephant wakes up and starts to flail around. The string will eventually break.

It's pretty much the same with electricity. A kettle / radiator is "sleeping elephant" but any inductive load is an awake elephant. The phi factor is a bit like the amount of panic the elephant feels at being suspended.

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Well in this case you as a user have caught a to big of an elephant for your wire.

Please login or register to see this image.

/emoticons/default_icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" />

The wire can only take 1500kg if you have a elephant in panik

2500kg for sleeping elephant (max 2.5kW resistive load)

1500kg for elephant in panic (max 1,5kW on all other loads)