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What is the strategy of this company


Dino

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With all due respect Daniel, I'm under the impression that our efforts are not taken seriously. If your call to action is to keep on reporting bugs, then we expect something in return.

At the moment it's like sending messages into a black hole. It takes lightyears to reach it, then it vanishes, or (after quite some time) returns as an alien life form taking unwanted control of our homes.

I appreciate your comments and I enjoy your contributions to this forum, but I'm afraid it's too little too late.

I'm not scared of getting my hands dirty, but then I like to see something grow or created. And given the posts on this forum, I'm not alone on this. And Fibaro needs these frontrunners in order to improve the products. We're on the 4th beta 4 and be honest: we are still a long way from home...

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We're not exactly leaving 3.590 for the beta just for the fun of it. We're doing it because the stable branch is totally broken and we're desperate to see some improvement. Since the issues we're all having have been reported by many users over and over again for a long long time, and we keep being ignored, I really don't see how contacting the support would be any help. "Dear support, can you please fix the critical known bugs that Fibaro is ignoring while working on new marketing lies and new features that nobody cares about"?

If Fibaro is still under the impression that 3.590 is stable despite the growing number of disappointed users, I don't know what else we can do really. The functionality that only exists in the advertising and in Fibaro's dreams is one thing. A bigger issue is that we spent a lot of money on a system that is close to being unusable.

If you care about your users, you should immediately declare a feature freeze and fix the most important bugs. Then you should investigate how you could let this situation happen and how you will prevent it from happening again.

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Guest gembrain

If you care about your users, you should immediately declare a feature freeze and fix the most important bugs. Then you should investigate how you could let this situation happen and how you will prevent it from happening again.

Totally agree.

The only feature I would like to see them add at the moment is something like Z Seer that shows the Z Wave topology in a setup. Might help with tracking network problems...

[ Added: 2014-12-02, 00:55 ]

....and what issues you have with 3.590?......

Maybe you have lots of magic tricks that none of us know about but it is Fibaro themselves on these forums who have said that they needed to rewrite the Z Wave engine to deal with existing problems in 3.590 that cannot be solved any other way....

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If you care about your users, you should immediately declare a feature freeze and fix the most important bugs. Then you should investigate how you could let this situation happen and how you will prevent it from happening again.

Totally agree.

The only feature I would like to see them add at the moment is something like Z Seer that shows the Z Wave topology in a setup. Might help with tracking network problems...

[ Added: 2014-12-02, 00:55 ]

....and what issues you have with 3.590?......

Maybe you have lots of magic tricks that none of us know about but it is Fibaro themselves on these forums who have said that they needed to rewrite the Z Wave engine to deal with existing problems in 3.590 that cannot be solved any other way....

+1 !

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Can I ask what version of the software you're currently running, and what issues you have with 3.590?

Set up a 3.590 system. Add a few sensors (I have about a dozen Aeon 4-in-1 and Fibaro motion sensors).

Run them for a week, and tell me how many of the IR sensors will be flagged as Temperature sensors in the system.

No amout of "Please reduce traffic in your zwave network!" will fix this if you have a larger installation with a few dozen devices.

Had THAT issue not been in EVERY release below 4.x i would defintely never have touched any of the 3.9/4.x releases.

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So, strategy and communication is clearly a source of frustration for users. The challenge is that, since this is such a major update there are a number of unexpected bugs that in some cases are still being discovered, which makes projecting exact dates quite difficult. However there have been 3+ updates in as many weeks so progress is being made. Whether it's faster or slower than anticipated is not for me to say, but I personally run the beta at home and I've seen this progress first hand on my own system. The beta does need a lot of hand-holding from the user, but like I've said above it is a beta, and this is to be expected.

Hi Daniel, i work in the management of large scale software development projects so am aware of all the issues that can come with such a development cycle and yes, it can be difficult to project a date for release.

That said, there must be a milestone date that the project team are working towards and the development must be at a certain stage by now, for example, has all the development actually been completed, is it now in testing? What stage of testing is it at? How much longer is it estimated that the current stage will take? What is next after the completion of that stage?

There is much that can be communicated to users beyond what has and in doing so it may make users a lot more understanding of the current position, the alternative is that people are just being told 'its coming', 'it coming', which doesn't show any progress so people become frustrated and lose interest in the product.

As for 'missing' functionality. Lack of SMS in the UK is not an issue of 'false advertising', since SMS functionality is in the HC2, and all service-based features are dependant on country and region. There are options though - if you need SMS you can always set up a 3rd party SMS gateway that accepts emails in and converts them to SMS. I can't recommend any at this stage since we obviously remain impartial, but if you google "email to sms gateway uk" you'll find various providers. We can help you with setup as well if you require it.

I wasn't told at the time of purchase the that SMS was country specific and in fairness i would have thought such a common piece of functionality would not be that hard to implement in any country these days... however when i queried it (after having purchased the system) i was told it would by UK support it would be introduced late 2014, early 2015..., therefore i assume this will still be the case?

Regarding safety - what I can tell you at this stage is that the concerns from the Swedish authorities are less of a safety issue and more related to compliance. Specifically labelling and terminal spacing. Here we all practice what we preach and have it in our own homes, and personally if I felt there was a genuine safety concern I would have taken it out of mine by now.

So, this seems an easy one surely (or am i over simpifying), how hard can it be to correct labelling? How hard can it be to correct terminal spacing? Given that the ban has now been in effect for a number of months, has the production of the currnet units been changed any to accomdate these items and while granted it may not be a major safety concern (for labelling anyway, not sure about terminal spacing), wouldn't the bad PR that this causes be enough to fix something that seems relatively easy to resolve?

Can I ask what version of the software you're currently running, and what issues you have with 3.590? Have you contacted our UK support before?

I would require to check which version it is i am using, but one of my biggest issues is dead nodes which seems to be an issue in many version (not just beta), given that i wanted a home automation system i don't want to have to 'wake up' nodes constantly, it kind of defeats the purpose!

[ Added: 2014-12-11, 16:17 ]

Daniel, are you planning on answering any of the above?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Liquidchild,

Sorry for the late response, sheer volume of posts tend to pile up on top of topics I'v responded to. Let me try and answer your questions as best I can.

Regarding development timescales. I understand your point, but as I'm sure you're now aware a date was set for release 2 days ago (6th January 2015, to coincide with CES.) I hope this is satisfactory.

Regarding SMS. As an integrated solution we are working on this still, but of course we are relying on a 3rd Party for providing the actual service. Having said that, we can get SMS working for you immediately - contact our support dept ([email protected]) and we will help you out.

As for replacement products to deal with the sales ban, this is something that I don't have any further information on at this stage, but as always as this develops everyone will be informed.

Dead nodes in 3.590 is obviously not ideal, but there is plenty we can do to mitigate the issues it presents while we are waiting for v4. Have you discussed this with UK Support? We've helped lots of people out with this problem in the interim.

Please let me know if you'd like to discuss anything further, alternatively you can give us a call on 0203 327 1000 to have a chat.

Cheers,

Dan

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Danny

Thanks for the reply, it is much appreciated!

I will send an email over to support about the SMS.

I wasn't actually aware of the V4 release date, so look forward to seeing the new version come early January

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remcoploeg, sorry not sure I understand, do you mean SMS integration?

I'm sure it will be possible, but I don't know of any Dutch services that will do the same as we have here.

We will be doing a Tutorial soon about setting this up so we'll post a link on the forum as well. You'll then be able to see if you can apply it in the Netherlands.

Thanks,

Daniel

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Hi Daniel,

Quite frankly, I wonder why no one responded yet. You just keep pushing everything away without real answers.

Dead nodes in 3.590 is obviously not ideal, but there is plenty we can do to mitigate the issues it presents while we are waiting for v4. Have you discussed this with UK Support? We've helped lots of people out with this problem in the interim.

Why exactly do you state to contact support? Why can't you just give an answer here and now? Look around the forum, a whole lot of people are facing this issue. Should everyone contact the UK support? Why do we need to contact the support in the first place if 3.590 is stable?

Of course, this is just one of the many issues with 3.590. It's just not stable, just as every other available version. I remember when I was using it, I could include / exclude devices like the 4-1 aeotec sensor multiple times and I would be presented with a different "device" every time. How come this is hapening in a stable environment?

The z-wave engine was rewritten from scratch after the last "stable" version. Why? Because it was not able to keep up with bigger installations. Because it was messing up stuff, see dead nodes. Apparently, this was broken beyond repair.

You state we shouldn't update to the betas, but the stable is just as bad. You can look around the forums. Incompatibility and other issues. Where are the fixes for the stable version? Was there even ONE patch on the stable branch? What other option, beside installing betas, do we have?

Regarding development timescales. I understand your point, but as I'm sure you're now aware a date was set for release 2 days ago (6th January 2015, to coincide with CES.) I hope this is satisfactory.

No, this is not satisfactory. The current betas are not nearly stable. Given the experience from previous version, this strongly indicates that yet again you push the current state of the software to "stable" just to show off. That is also why no one cares about what you are talking about "please stay on the stable version as beta is for testing". There just is no difference.

A good policy would be to release software when its ready. A bad policy is to release software independend on quality depending on circumstances like trade shows. This just shines a very bad light on you.

As for 'missing' functionality. Lack of SMS in the UK is not an issue of 'false advertising', since SMS functionality is in the HC2, and all service-based features are dependant on country and region.

No one stated that this "service" was region dependent, as already stated. It was an advertised feature, not a "service".

Apart from this, what about some other features? I am sure there are several more, but just from the top of my head:

- Hardware Firmware update:

How come we still can't upgrade the firmware for any of our devices? Is there an ETA?

- Automatic notification in scenario x (going on vacation and heating is left on):

This one is even currently being advertised. How exactly will the HC2 "automatically" detect when I'm on vacation? Of course, we can do this by LUA, but that definately isn't what the prospect is telling us.

- backup to server:

You advertise backup to outside servers. Where is it? When will it be available and why is there no imprint that this is not ready yet?

Even more, the current backup / recovery stuff is completely broken. You are using a usb stick as the sole backup. We had multiple reports about the file system on the stick being corrupt, essentialy leading to failure of the HC2. We even had an report about the Fibaro support "killing" an HC2 despite the users adivce that the filesystem is damaged.

Now we have a new "feature" in the latest betas. We can check if the filesystem is OK. It's useless - mine does indicate that everything is OK, yet I can't boot the recovery.

How can you explain that this is not fixed yet? According to Fibaro.com you are on the market for 4 years and you still can't provide a proper restore procedure?

Unfortunately, this is the nature of installing beta software. If you do not want to put your home at risk in this way, I would strongly advise reverting back to 3.590 and waiting for the new version to be released in an official capacity. The beta is an optional update, and we never recommend anyone updates without first understanding the risks associated.

If this is the case, please simply stop providing beta updates. You are talking about how beta obviously is risky.

1. The stuff Fibaro is releasing as beta isn't even beta. Every new beta has so many regressions and literally dozens of new bugs. My best guess is that you just compile a build every now and then, release it as beta and do your testing there. no testing in between, no?

2. What are you releasing the betas for? You state that we shouldn't update / revert. The Support is telling us to just revert if there is a problem. If you don't care about our testing results, as said above, don't release beta version. or at least state in a disclaimer that you are only providing the updates as a preview and will ignore everything the users are reporting.

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If this is the case, please simply stop providing beta updates. You are talking about how beta obviously is risky.

You obviously don't understand what a beta is.

For the avoidance of doubt and subjectivity please consider the academic reference below:

Hughes, B, & Cotterel, M; Software Project Management (2009);

"Beta software refers to computer software that is undergoing testing and has not yet been officially released. The beta phase follows the alpha phase, but precedes the final version.

Since beta software is a pre-release version of the final application, it may be unstable or lack features that will be be included in the final release. Therefore, beta software often comes with a disclaimer that testers should use the software at their own risk. If you choose to beta test a program, be aware that it may not function as expected."

For god's sake, if you want stable software don't download a beta. If you download a beta, expect there to be bugs.

Sheeesh... I could feel my cells dying reading this.

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But beta software should not contain spelling mistakes that the previous life cycle of betas had as well! No excuses for developers not using there own bug report website!

But I agree beta is beta...

But I've not seen such mature software behave so badly under a beta!

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Hi everyone,

Please contact support if you're having trouble with your system. In some situations a general solution is required and in this case we will normally write a tutorial and post about it on the forum. But in most cases the solution will be specific for your system - this is why we ask you to contact support.

I think on this forum there is a general misunderstanding of the word 'stable' - as used in software development. Stable does not mean 'no bugs'. Stable means unchanging. As opposed to beta where things could change from version to version.

What this means is that in version 3.590, there are known issues. Issues that won't change. Quite a lot of these issues have workarounds that Fibaro and the community have worked together to produce to mitigate the problems until they are fixed in a future version. Unfortunately, however, there are some issues that just can't be avoided in certain circumstances.

It's those unavoidable problems in version 3.590 which have caused past threads (

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) where certain members of the community were waiting for the then Alpha version of the software to be made more available. So, it was moved to Beta - so anyone who had unavoidable issues with version 3.590 could, perhaps, start seeing fixes the the long standing issues.

However, Beta software is not stable. There is no guarantee that from version to version the issues will be the same. As such, Fibaro and the community can't really develop workarounds for the issues and everyone is dependent on Fibaro to fix the issues in the next release.

When version 4 is released as stable, it would be naive to think that it will be 100% bug free (although the aim will be to have it as perfect as possible). However, when it is stable, it will not change. The development of fixes and new features will continue in alpha again with occasional beta releases. But the stable version will stay the same.

It is up to each user to choose the version of the software which is best for their system. We recommend staying with the stable version 3.590 and using the workarounds that have been developed if you have any issues. If the issues are something that is not working in version 3.590 and you know it is fixed in version 4.x then you have the option of upgrading, but if you do so while it is in Beta, you run the risk of other issues (some not yet discovered, I'm sure) affecting your system in an undefined way.

This is why we recommend the stable release if at all possible.

Between now and January when version 4 is due to be released as stable, the development will continue. The development team are not sitting in Poland with a completely bug free version of the software and teasing you by releasing buggy versions of it in the mean time. They are working hard to remove the bugs! It's not easy, it's not fast, and the best way to help them is good reporting of bugs on bugzilla.fibaro.com. They do have pride in their software and in the system they have developed. They want to make it the best controller available.

Kind regards,

Adam Bewsher

[ Added: 2014-12-23, 10:27 ]

Hi Dean,

But beta software should not contain spelling mistakes that the previous life cycle of betas had as well! No excuses for developers not using there own bug report website!

I agree with you.

But I've not seen such mature software behave so badly under a beta!

The mature parts are holding up well. Most of the issues are related to the complete rewrite of the z-wave engine.

Kind regards,

Adam Bewsher

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For god's sake, if you want stable software don't download a beta. If you download a beta, expect there to be bugs.

Sheeesh... I could feel my cells dying reading this.

Get off that high horse of yours. You obviously misread the complete post of mine. I didn't complain about the amount of bugs in the betas, nor about me experiencing bugs after installing a beta.

The part you quoted was about fibaro releasing beta software to their customers, which they obviously do so the customers TEST their software. The problem with it being that the feedback is ignored and even more, they just keep on repeating that we shouldn't install any beta. In this case, they shouldn't even provide the beta to third parties.

As a company, Fibaro should either

1. go with the betas, take the feedback serious, get involved in the forum and stop telling everyone to basically "not complain OR not install a beta" (which you should read as the logical OR).

2. don't release betas if they don't want to handle the complaints and don't want to put up the effort to actually investigate bugs etc.

The part you quoted was all about how Fibaro is treating the users that ARE taking the risks involved with the beta releases. The users that ARE willing to face some bugs and know (from experience) that things will not work after they install the latest version.

So, please stop teaching me about what a beta is or isn't, as that was never part of the discussion.

The main point of my post was that everyone from Fibaro is just ignoring the truth. They keep on posting stuff to keep their faces. "You can get in touch with the support, they will help you". "A new stable release will be available soon". All of this won't change the truth.

The next stable will be a rebranded beta again. The next stable will be a one shot. There is no "stable branch" that will receive bug fixes. After the stable, a new beta will be available mixing much needed bugfixes, regressions and new buggy features. If you need one of the bugfixes you essentially have NO choice other than upgrading to the beta, as there won't be a fixes stable and the next stable will take a long time. Again, this isn't me complaining that a beta WILL contain bugs. It's me asking why there is no stable branch that will receive fixes. It's me asking why Fibaro is telling beta users that they basically have no interest in them. It's me complaining that Fibaro just won't give an honest reply and start fixing bugs instead of implementing new features.

It's obvious that Fibaro (devs / management) is not going with the "way to go" of software developement. It doesn't matter if everyone keeps repeating that beta software is expected to be buggy. It won't change the situation and the politics that Fibaro is going with.

What really impresses me most is that there is a constant stream of people siding with Fibaro. I really can't understand where you are coming from. Seriously, I don't understand it. We are in the same boat, yet you start a discussion about wheter or not I understand what a beta is when there are so many other issues that no one from Fibaro is making a clear statement about. As many other people said before on this forum, Fibaro won't care as long as only very few people complain. Are you unaffected of any of the Problems that we other people are facing? Do you just not care? Is it just "for the sake of the argument"?

I still hope that I will get an answer from David or someone else in Fibaro, at least regarding the other questions NOT involving the beta discussion.

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Adam I agree it does seem a lot of issues in beta are engine related. Either way we all wait with baited breath for a new release in 2015

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/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> have a good Christmas and New Year

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I just went trough Adams post. Thank you Adam for giving a comment, It's much appreciated. I would however still like to see a comment regarding the missing features.

I won't comment on you definition of "stable". It's good to know your companys view of it tough.

Again, an honest "Thank you" for the feedback.

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Adam.Bewsher beat me to the punch here.

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MrMKHR,

Thanks for the response, I'm not going to rehash what Adam has already said since I think he's covered it perfectly well. I still wanted to respond to you personally since you addressed me directly:

One thing that I'd like to touch on is the necessity of contacting us when something isn't working. All systems are inherently different - running different scripts, virtual devices, API integrations and Zwave devices. Couple this with environmental factors - bottle necking in the Zwave network, interference and range issues and it's almost impossible to post a 'catch all' solution to problems that are not consistent from system to system. Even though they may exhibit the same symptoms, the cause is usually something very specific that needs identifying first.

I'll give you a concrete example of this - we had a customer call us who had horrific issues with dead nodes, in particular when using associations. The system had approximately 55-60 Zwave devices (so not small.) It was actually Adam who spent some time on the phone and TeamViewer with him diagnosing, and ultimately fixing (via various workarounds) the issue. It boiled down to network design and routing - a particular node struggling to process all the commands and causing nodes to appear as dead. Sure, with the newer engine this would likely have not been a problem in the first place, but with some careful workarounds it's possible to make it work. That was about 2 months ago, and things have worked reliably there ever since.

My point is, if you are using 3.590, you might get into a situation where it is not working reliably for you. For the vast majority of people it does, but as I said before, all systems are different and some of the known bugs rear up and cause some nasty issues.

When they do, that's what we're here for

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/emoticons/default_icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" />. We'll do our absolute best to help you out because we want everyone to have a great experience with their Fibaro system, not just the people who don't see any bugs!

Regarding missing features - I'm really sorry but I will have to ask one of our Polish colleagues to chip in here as I personally can't answer the questions you have asked.

Kind regards (and a very Merry Christmas!)

Daniel[/b]

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