Let's sue Fibaro

[JanJoh 1]

I remember a marketing picture of a mobile client with a dialog "XBOX has been running for more then 4 hours. Turn off?" And a yes/no dialog.

I remember Motion sensor being advertised as being able to count people in rooms (without even any example code etc)

Off topic, but:

I think it was playstation

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Motion sensor example:

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Advertised as "counbting people in a room". Not "counting beople, and cats, and toys moving through a door if you buy two or more of the units."

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But, it might have been a playstation.

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[Dalle1985 16]

Unless the product is at fault in injuring you or causing damage to your property (and the burden of proof lies with you here) there is nothing to sue them over.

Wrong. They have, on several occasions, advertised functionality that does not exist.

That is something you can haul them to court for.

I remember a marketing picture of a mobile client with a dialog "XBOX has been running for more then 4 hours. Turn off?" And a yes/no dialog.

I remember Motion sensor being advertised as being able to count people in rooms (without even any example code etc)

I remember smoke sensor being advertised with the black box graph way before it was available as a GA feature.

I remember several advertisments claiming OTA upgradability, and as a statement of fact, not an upcoming feature.

and so on... and so on...

False advertising, yes, material for a court case - no, and there are some pitfalls in CISG that you need to be aware of before you start paying your lawyer to much money - having studied economics and commercial law I have a pretty good idea of how the system works.

Any seller is allowed to praise their product. So they are actually allowed to oversell their product - as long as they don't lie - and Fibaro havent:

- It is a technical possibility to do OTA updates, it might not be available or practical, but it is possible

- Counting people - although it is extremely clumsy, the system can be set up to count entities moving in and out of a room, whether it be people or dogs doesn't matter - they are not selling this feature any differently than any manufacturer of a laser barrier or a revolving gate.

- Notifying that the PlayStation or Xbox has been on for 4 hours... well, do you have an extra wall plug? Then I'll create that scene for you in three minutes flat!

- Black box - well yeah, this is probably the only function where they have promised a bit more than they could actually deliver on at the time. But it isn't NEARLY enough to warrant a lawsuit - a judge will tell you that (if your lawyer hasn't already before it ends up in court) and it will just end up costing money... Especially since Fibaro has later stated that this is future functionality.

If you should launch a formal lawsuit or complaint against them, it shouldn't be on the functionality - because that is, technically, there even though they might have oversold their product slightly, but against their faulty products - some of which can actually prove dangerous under the right circumstances. Here I am thinking of the melting dimmers especially. But as there has been no proven incidents where something or someone has actually been in harms way do to the product, your claim would probably be limited to a replacement or refund (inside the two year period that is).

Also, the statement that you are going to hunt them down the day before the two year limit, is also just silly. Because, first of all - burden of proof is on you, and secondly, you MUST act "bonus pater familiaris" and the bonus pater familiaris would seeking a refund within a normal time period after purchasing the product - not two years down the line. Now all the people complaining and bickering over lacking functionality or broken promises in here have proven by this fact that they are not acting bonus pater familiaris and thus, they have forfeit their claims. This is like buying a car and then realizing that only one brake works - you then wait four months until the car can't brake at all and you've had an accident and then ask for a refund. That simply isn't the way law works - you can't just bend it to fit your need.

Also, I'm fairly certain that they have a disclaimer that protects them against lacking functionality or bugs in the system.

[JanJoh 1]

- Notifying that the PlayStation or Xbox has been on for 4 hours... well, do you have an extra wall plug? Then I'll create that scene for you in three minutes flat!

No, you will not. Because the ad showed an iPhone, with an alert type popup, with a "Yes/No" dialog. That is not an available fature.

Also, the statement that you are going to hunt them down the day before the two year limit, is also just silly. Because, first of all - burden of proof is on you, and secondly, you MUST act "bonus pater familiaris" and the bonus pater familiaris would seeking a refund within a normal time period after purchasing the product - not two years down the line.

And this is where Fibaro should have replied to my emails, or support tickets and not just responded with silence.

I have the support case numbers. But i have heard nothing. I have fulfilled my obligation... And if fibaro chose to simply ignore the cases (despite repeated requests for update) I have certainly fulfilled my obligations

I am aware that the burden of proof shifts after six months in sweden. However, my point is that I intend to make an aggregate claim before my two years (actually three in sweden, but since two is the lowest allowed within the EU, that is what i am going with) are up. Claiming that the source party, despite having acknowledged my requests for help, has not acted in a manner associated with trying to adress the issues.

I have reported an issue. I have received confirmation of its receipt by the source party. If the source party then feels like not answering for a year or two: Not my problem. If they simply has a mess of mails since this was before they even got a ticket system: Not my problem.

Now all the people complaining and bickering over lacking functionality or broken promises in here have proven by this fact that they are not acting bonus pater familiaris and thus, they have forfeit their claims.

See above answer.

This is like buying a car and then realizing that only one brake works - you then wait four months until the car can't brake at all and you've had an accident and then ask for a refund. That simply isn't the way law works - you can't just bend it to fit your need.

Actually, for a product sold in sweden SFS1990:932, twentythird paragraph it states that problems are to be reported in reasonable time, but that two months should always be considered reasonable time, regardless of circumstances. And, i have reported the cases, one by one. I just have not gotten any feedback.

Also, I'm fairly certain that they have a disclaimer that protects them against lacking functionality or bugs in the system.

Of course, and the 4.x preamble is just ridiculous. THat does not prevent them from having to deliver what they have implied to have sold.

(I have represented myself in legal procedings agains three former employers, two car dealers, one bank and my ex wife. One car dealer is still an active process, else i have gotten my due in the rest of the issues. I have, like yourself, chose to study law for a few years.

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[MrMxyzptlk 10]

Sounds like you have bigger worries than Fibaro if you've had to defend yourself against 3 former employers, your car manufacturer, and your ex wife.

Seems you are a very litigious minded human...

[JanJoh 1]

Sounds like you have bigger worries than Fibaro if you've had to defend yourself against 3 former employers, your car manufacturer, and your ex wife.

Seems you are a very litigious minded human...

Defend?

I was the one that initiated all processes.

Oh, i will go pretty much any length of time to resolve an issue peacefully. But, when all else fails, I will put it infront of a court of law.

[ Added: 2015-01-13, 16:05 ]

But it isn't NEARLY enough to warrant a lawsuit - a judge will tell you that (if your lawyer hasn't already before it ends up in court) and it will just end up costing money...

Actually.. No.

At least in sweden, a civil rights case (Dispute) cannot be "rejected". As long as one part want to take it to court. It will go to court.

There is a mandatory pre-meeting where the parties discuss. But the presiding arbitor CANNOT reject the case. In many other countries you would be correct.

Also, for small claims, the winning party cannot ask for restitution regarding their own legal costs except for a single (rate limited) hour of legal advice from the losing party.

So, yes, frivilous litigation is fully possible in sweden. If you know that the oposing party cannot represent themselves but need legal representation. You can (hypothetically of course) tie them up in court for 30-40 hours. They get stuck with the bill for their lawyer, and you would only be out some 1300Sek yourself.

[MrMxyzptlk 10]

I didn't mean defend I meant prosecute.

[JanJoh 1]

I didn't mean defend I meant prosecute.

Well, ok, lets get a bit OT here.

Employer one: A contract stated that I would receive a one time payment to the sum of one year gross salary if i retraced my resignation, and stayed with the company another four months. They did not fullfill this despite four months of discussions. So, I took it to court. It was settled out of court after them being served.

Employer two did not respect the seniority while downsizing. So, I took it to court.

The bank froze one of my accounts due to user error. They were supposed to freeze the account of another person. They then refused to reimburse me for the late fees when bills were not paid on time due to this. I filed a lawsuit. It was settled out of court, before they were even served.

Car dealer one had doctored the service book of the vehicle. Settled in court.

Car dealer two is ongoing, so i will not comment.

Exwife forged my signature on a $20k loan AND killed my cats (I kid you not) when I did not drop it "It is not like you need the money, I do!!!". The loan was easily handled, but Her, I will simply make as miserable as possible for as long as i possibly can.

[MrMxyzptlk 10]

OK, then I will just say I'm sorry for all your bad luck.

Remind me not to go to Las Vegas with you!

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[JanJoh 1]

OK, then I will just say I'm sorry for all your bad luck.

Remind me not to go to Las Vegas with you!

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I wouldn't call it bad luck for ME

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Great advice however about Vegas

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First visit (95): Food poisoning. Well, ok, i might actually just have been completely drunk out of my wits.. i will admit that...

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Second visit (06): Broken finger. (Tripped while getting of a bus, sober. Just bad luck)

Third visit (10): Dental surgery needed after getting serious issues with a wisdom tooth.

So, I am not really Diggin' Vegas!

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Edit:

But, getting back to the actual topic.

I really cannot see this forum becoming more constructive until Fibaro eats a surprisingly large serving of humble pie, and start to actually _communicate_ with the user base.

I did sing their praise when they ramped up the release interval during last quarter, it was progress.

[Guest Lode]

A big NO from me.

The supportteam, developers are hard working guys.

I asked two times for support last week and within half an hour I had a response.

Try that somewhere else !

They are not the people to blaim, defenitely not !!

I think it's more at a CEO-level where the problems are.

They are just pushing their employees to the limit by advertising about things that can't be accomplished in time and that's why they become in trouble more and more.

[Kuba13 49]

I see why would you want to sue them, but i can not see it ever working out.

 

Allso it has been a while have you done annything since than? (because there were atrocious releases recently, some suvere lack of functionality (Y! weaher) gven the examples listed above those are about as strong points).

 

 

Now if this was just a way to get them to do their customer support right i'd appritiate it. As noted in many other threads we desperatly need them to expand their tech team and support team (my way of thinking is that they are not expanding their company fast enough to catch up to ammount of units sold).

 

 In my country you would have to prove intentional missleading (you know GSM and Battery pack modules kind) on their part, as long as they began actuall developement they would however be able to claim that they did not release these because hardware was unable to handle what was expected of it. this causule makes it insanely difficult to get software companies to uphold their promises (you know stuff like full game when you only recive prologue), I do assume that Fibaro is not doing this intentionally they just luck manpower, experience or time (or anny combination) making final software not as wonderfull as we'd like.

 

 I hope that somone at Fibaro reconizes this software problem and gets together with i dunno Domoticz or some other company that dose Z-wave related software with strong emphesis on analysis. Allso maybe completly rework HCL (both hardware and software) in such way that would not easily lend itselve to overtaxing. I imagine HCL should be end-user's favourite with much sturdier OS than it presently has - sorry but i would slap windows on there, purely because it would not allow users to * it up as easily. And if you beef up rom+ram(pretty sure CPU is fine) it could end up being fair bargain that could give some other companies really run for their money.

 

 I like Fibaro it has good potenciall and if they stop slacking it could become one of the biger companies in home automation, they just need more focus and better software.

 

to reply i do not think suing them solves annything but i do on ocasion try to bring problems from forums to them via techsuport and or PMs.

[chaicka 195]

If I may chip in. Fibaro's Technical Support really lacks the fundamental knowledge of what proper tech support should be, at least on the L1 Tech Support level.

 

I am pretty sure there are plentiful of Polish folks well verse in ITIL framework (in the IT industry, and my firm has plentiful of support teams with resources in Poland) and knows what and how a proper L1 tech support should be.

 

Example: How can a support ticket logged but not receive any response for 2 weeks only to receive a response today with some half-pass-six steps (which anyone who have been through tens of beta releases will know what to do by now) and set the ticket as resolved together with the response. TOTAL FAILURE or VIOLATION of how Incident Management suppose to be done.

 

If Fibaro is listening, I would STRONGLY SUGGEST to go out there and hire some decent L1 technical support folks which I am very sure there is plentiful in the market there in Poland (otherwise, my firm won't be expanding various support teams so rapidly with resources from there).

[Kuba13 49]

If I may chip in. Fibaro's Technical Support really lacks the fundamental knowledge of what proper tech support should be, at least on the L1 Tech Support level.

 

I am pretty sure there are plentiful of Polish folks well verse in ITIL framework (in the IT industry, and my firm has plentiful of support teams with resources in Poland) and knows what and how a proper L1 tech support should be.

 

Example: How can a support ticket logged but not receive any response for 2 weeks only to receive a response today with some half-pass-six steps (which anyone who have been through tens of beta releases will know what to do by now) and set the ticket as resolved together with the response. TOTAL FAILURE or VIOLATION of how Incident Management suppose to be done.

 

If Fibaro is listening, I would STRONGLY SUGGEST to go out there and hire some decent L1 technical support folks which I am very sure there is plentiful in the market there in Poland (otherwise, my firm won't be expanding various support teams so rapidly with resources from there).

i understand that frustration from diffrence between time posted and when they replied.

 

I would accept basic steps (you never know whom you are dealing with) that is fair enough to include. As long as they add bit more such as: at least questions that would lead them to understanding what could have gone wrong or maybe some deeper solutions.

[chaicka 195]

i understand that frustration from diffrence between time posted and it when they replied.

I would accept basic steps (you never know whom you are dealing with) that is fair enough to include. As long as they add bit more such as: at least questions that would lead them to understanding what could have gone wrong or maybe some deeper solutions.

Yes, I can accept basic steps with questions to find out more about the situation. Problem is: Two responses now, none actually ask any question and each response comes tagged as case resolved!!!

Reminds me of Trivandrum L1 support folks.... Hahahaha

[Sankotronic 2,370]

I have no reason to sue Fibaro for anything, actually I'am quite happy with the system and what is more important my wife is happy.

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Regarding that advertisement that game console is up and running for some hours is not false because this is actually very easy to make with one smart plug and some programming. Popup messages I use already for some time and they work just fine. Now popup messages are accompanied with gentle Italian woman voice reading Croatian which we find very amusing and funny. TTS is working very nice with Sonos speakers thanks to Jean-Christophe Vermandé and his SONOS Remote & Text To Speech (TTS) virtual device. Bravo Jean-Christophe and thank you very much for all your work you shared with Fibaro community.

 

I just wish that Fibaro continue to do good job in future and provide little bit more "how to" information for the community. It took me several weeks to find out how to do at least basic things with HC2 and i'am still learning but on try and errors due to lack of information.

[chaicka 195]

I have no reason to sue Fibaro for anything, actually I'am quite happy with the system and what is more important my wife is happy.

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/emoticons/default_smile.png" alt=":)" srcset="https://forum.fibaro.com/uploads/emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> Until now all problems that I had with the HC2 where caused by myself except one with deleting devices after adding swipe and making backup. It seems now to me that it is better to restart system before and after making backup like I did today and everything went smoothly without any loss of devices

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Yes. The same reason why I have been sharing 'good practice' steps in a few new version releases thread.

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.

 

Several experience and findings pointed me to believe the z-wave network layer is single-threaded and easy to have 'residues' when something goes wrong in the background but not visible in the GUI. I have been advocating Fibaro to add a warning text to recommend reboot of Home Center before firmware update if it has been running for a long period (i.e. 14 days or maybe 30 days, whatever make sense and determine why Fibaro engineers).

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.

[Kuba13 49]

Goof post:

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i just thought it'd make the mood beter. regardless Fibaro dose need to keep working as well and as focused as they did when they were working on 4.082Eta, that is a GOOD update and honestly recently they were kicking their game up alot. well done Guys!

[Lambik 194]

At the moment I'm investigation to move to another system. I used the HC2 for almost 3 years. Spent a lot of money, time and effort to get things working. A lot of the things do work but I missing simple ordinary futures and I stumble to often and to much on the boundaries of the possibilities, imposed by Fibaro. No way to use NFC, Bluetooth, your own email server, your own backup or another common used computer technologies!

 

• Also, they made promises they didn't keep. They made a promise not to store private data. Nevertheless the introduced Google Analytics in version 4.080.

source:

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• Because I don't trust them any more they should gain my trust again, by telling us what the hell they're doing. The only thing they have improved is the HC2 code for security reasons. I don't buy that. It looks to me they want to protect their product, in spite of the consequences (drawbacks) for their users. A 'good' example is, when the recovery USB is broken, you have to send the whole HC2 device to Poland!

source:

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They made a very Closed Source system with the use of a Open Source Linux Debian OS (BTW do they infringe the GNU license?). Just to make as much money as they can by lying, misguidance and misusing others intellectual shared and open knowledge.

This opinion is not formed in a short time but by Fibaro's practise over the last 3 years.

 

I know there are (some) hard working and honest employee's at Fibaro's, but the way their 'suits' are doing business is rotten to the core.

 

Just my opinion.

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[chaicka 195]

Lambik, I think many of us shares your sentiments and well summarised gist of the problem Fibaro has.

 

Honestly, I was totally turned off looking at how Fibaro is spending so much on marketing campaigns and even that Mt Everest expedition instead of spending healthy proportion of its (maybe limited) funds to beef up its technical support and engineering/development teams.

 

In my limited knowledge of managing business (learning from a few CEOs of various firm size), if a firm spends a large % of its funds in marketing, it is a firm inflight for failure sooner or later as its 'revenue providers' will ditch them faster than they can react and regain faith and trust.

[tinman 1,070]

No way to use NFC, Bluetooth

NFC works with tasker and nfc tag app. One can as well use aeonlabs windows sensor, solder nfc chip and antenna and use it as well

 

No way to use NFC, Bluetooth

we using it for our customers, so it is possible. How? Plugin talking to our BT/IP gateway

 

your own email server, your own backup or another common used computer technologies!

backup? there is one, own email server? that works as well for our customers if requested

 

Also, they made promises they didn't keep. They made a promise not to store private data. Nevertheless the introduced Google Analytics in version 4.080.

this is very unfortunate, indeed.

 

They made a very Closed Source system with the use of a Open Source Linux Debian OS (BTW do they infringe the GNU license?).

yes they do, i checked that already with good known Berlin-based IT lawyer and spoke to them on Cebit. The problem is not GNU or whatever, but local law, he told me in poland it is a bit different, in germany e.g. one can not sell gears under such e.g. warranty condition, and there is more points where one can discuss or even stop sales, sue, etc. They know that and promised a solution soon, which is, from that lawyer point of view (short said) fair enough. That GNU issue can be fixed withing 10minutes, real open system is always different type of decision (see below). Data collection is up to you, you must not use newer versions, leak of (in videos) promised features is not that big problem as one could think (it's more moral than legal,and they actually never told - except OTA which is now fixed - that something has been implemented with Fibaro products, but implemented on Fibaro system, which, as you can see above, works great if one know the system and take the chance to implement things on the HC2 itself or with 3rd part addon hardware - which is again up to resealer/enduser).

So as you can see, there is no real problem but simply some open topics, which are on todo.

 

Just to make as much money as they can.

like every other company? nothing wrong with that.

Yes, some features and locks are to provide more security than by defualt provided by smart home systems (when you know z-wave or when you saw my postings here and there, you will understand why), therefore on can understand they point (and i'm happy as service provider to make extra money by unlocking things or implementing features on HC2 which didn't exists by default), on the other hand more open would be even greater, it would be benefit for everybody.

Fibaro is actually working on more things, e.g. better VD, better plugin implementation, more features (and yes, on stability as well), they have better support than year ago, and there is more coming soon but i can not speak about. Everything just need some time, which is for you i think not option anymore?

 

Anyway, my personal two cents.