Dimmer 2 overcurrent problem

[treboR 3]

Hello,

 

I'm having a strange problem with multiple dimmer 2 modules.

 

When ever I connect a laptop charger ( of vacuum cleaner ) the modules will shut off and report overcurrent. After 5 seconds the light turns on again.

 

one of them has one Osram 30 - 105w transformer connected with 2 35w halogen spots behind it. So the load isn't the issue. The electric system is brand new ( new home ) and the modules are connected with 3 wires.

 

I've tried using a dimmer 2 bypass to maybe filter the "overcurrent" but that also does not work. This is pretty annoying since I have 40 of these in the house now. Would be a shame if this is normal..

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Robert

[gijsbert 0]

Connecting a switch to L instead of Sx is not recommended but I agree with you that reporting "over-current" does not seem to have anything to do with this...

If FGD-212 reports "over-current" then it's almost certainly true. You cannot disable it. The detection protects the switching element and it is a fixed part of the dimmer. There is no parameter to influence it. I don't know if the dimmer could "accidentally" report an over-current... but I doubt it. It's one of the more important differences between the new and the old dimmer.

Maybe the capacitive load of the LED can cause this if there is a sudden voltage change. I need to test that hypothesis.

Maybe it also depends on the make/model of the LED.

What kind of LEDs are you using? Would it be possible to try a different brand? I was testing with a Philips "Warm Glow" 9W (and it didn't show any problem).

I'll try some other lamps & setups by the end of the week.

@PeterGebruers

 

 

I read that Trebor has the problem with halogen lights. I can tell that I have multiple dimmer2 with LED and no problem at all. Only in my bedroom I use a halogen light and I notice the exact same behaviour. overcurrent reported by the home center and the light turns off. Only this 1 halogen light. So if you are willing to test some other lamps, try some halogen and not LED as LED seems to work fine. I also noticed that if I put a vacuum cleaner in another room (on the same fuse but far away from dimmer location) there is no overcurrent reported.

[treboR 3]

^ As Gijsbert describes! Exact same behavior

[Guest chaicka]

Hmmm...Interesting. Coincidentally, those switches of sub-circuits lights I have are in close proximity (same row of switches) of the one with dimmer 2.

[petergebruers 1,268]

With the Osram transformers I mean these guys

 

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That is the very popular "Halotronic HTM 105". I have one of these, but at the time of your original question it was no longer in use. Now I have connected it and I am able to reproduce your problem in "the lab".

 

The phenomena I shared have been observed by my supplier across several consumers' installation and no specific brand or model of LED lights. And it happens only if other switching within same circuit (links back to same 6/10A MCB) and the switching is done very very fast pace (on off on off on off on off on off - faction of seconds per toggling).

 

I am using Philips LED 9W down lights. I can take a video clip to show how to reproduce it.

Thanks. I have bunch of LED tot test with.

 

(...) But as soon as I put a vacuum cleaner, a drilling machine (anything with high power) in one of the other wall outlets in my bedroom, the light turns off and the home center reports an overcurrent message.

 

However, the funny thing is that my bedroom and livingroom are on the same fuse. If I put on a vacuum cleaner in my living room, then the light in the bedroom just stays on the way it should be.

 

It looks like the more close you get to the location of the dimmer, the higher the chance it reports an overcurrent. It's weird behaviour and for sure not the way it should be.

Thanks for sharing. I think a bit of extra resistance due to the wiring attenuates the Voltage peak(s), explaining why it only happens if you connect the load less than a few meters away from the dimmer.

 

@PeterGebruers

 

 

I read that Trebor has the problem with halogen lights. I can tell that I have multiple dimmer2 with LED and no problem at all. (...)

There may be some confusion here. Halogen can mean three different types of load:

a) A mains voltage halogen (sometimes referred to as "GU10" or "ECO halogen" but neither is very correct). These present a resistive load, but cold they have 5-10 x lower resistance so they are know to cause high current peaks.

b) An "iron core transformer" connected to a 12 V halogen. I think that was the first popular way to have halogen lights. They present an inductive-resistive load and the FGD-212 switches to "leading edge" dimming = like a FGD-211.

c) An "electronic transformer" . The transformer can do "trailing or leading edge". The FGD-212 chooses "trailing edge". These transformers present a complex load, because they are a kind switched mode power supply. The Osram HTM features all kinds of protections.

Anyway, the FGD-212 knows how to handle all three of them, but you need to recalibrate if you change the load type.

It took me while to reproduce the problem. This is how I can repeatably (75 % of all attempts) produce an "over current" (reported in the status window) followed by a shutdown of the load for a few seconds.

The load is a 20 W halogen 12 V connected to the HTM 105. I know that's below the minimum of 35 Watt, I need to check that.

The "trigger device" is a power drill, that uses TRIAC control.

I've also tested an IKEA 13 W dimmable LED and a 77 W 230V halogen but was unable to trigger the phenomenon, after 10 attempts.

I connected my scope to the load, in order to measure current peaks, but I'm not ready to share the results. Measuring fast high current pulses accurately isn't very easy.

I'm still at the stage of discovering how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

[RobertL 21]

Presumably it's the coil in the power drill that causes a small phase shift which again causes Dimmer2 to behave abnormally .. Coils and capacitors connected to a power circuit generates such phase shift "noise".

This is probably a case Fibaro support needs to look into.

 

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Maybe dimmer2 are just too smart and sensitive

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[petergebruers 1,268]

Presumably it's the coil in the power drill that causes a small phase shift which again causes Dimmer2 to behave abnormally .. Coils and capacitors connected to a power circuit generates such phase shift "noise".

This is probably a case Fibaro support needs to look into.

 

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Maybe dimmer2 are just too smart and sensitive

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Hi, thanks for chiming in! Yeah, there is phase shift and all. And its friends: dv/dt and dI/dt. If you ever want to discuss electronics with me, go ahead, I am an engineer.

Good you bring up Fibaro support... I'm indeed not certain if anyone has already contacted them, and if there is anything to report.

For me, as long as it does this "over-current" thing only when I plug in my power drill, I can live with it. If that's the price to pay for good protection, it's OK. I'm speaking strictly for myself here!

Bringing up the various ways to throw off a phase control dimmer... I've said this before but think the only rock-solid solution is to use a RGBW module. The conversion to 12 V DC removes all the stuff that can influence an AC dimmer! I have both solutions at home and I'm not complaining about my FGD-211 and FGD-212, but an RGBW is something... different!

[Guest chaicka]

Just an update on new observation.

 

• My supplier is now working with Fibaro on the issue and feeding them technical info on this phenomenon (as I am not the only customer affected or experiencing this phenomenon).
• This phenomenon now officially affects me in real-use. One of the sub-circuit (kitchen lights) on the same circuit (S1 - same MCB in DB) is triggering this phenomenon (which causes a

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  light to switch off for a few seconds and on again, whenever a motion-based scene switch on the kitchen lights - 

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  ). The switch and relay for this particular sub-circuit is not in close proximity of the Fibaro dimmer 2.

[petergebruers 1,268]

I'm sorry to hear that's happening. But good news that your dealer and Fibaro are working on it. I'll put my test setup aside. Let's hope you can report some good news soon, so I can put it my storage instead.

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[Alex 32]

I have seen this problem once at my side too.

Also using dimmer 2, one switch only (because I cannot use the second wire because of the other famous bug) and one LED bulb of 9W with Bypass 2 in a 3-wire-connection.

I cannot remember exactly what was running at this time. I just recognized that the light went of and that I got this message on HC2-webpage.

[TRicky 84]

Same problems here. Posted already on 12 November 2015

forum.fibaro.com/index.php?/topic/19966-dimmer-2-interference/

 

Still looking where I left the answer I received from Fibaro....

That answer was pretty useless.....

When I find it I'll post it here

[petergebruers 1,268]

Same problems here. Posted already on 12 November 2015

forum.fibaro.com/index.php?/topic/19966-dimmer-2-interference/ (...)

Thank you for reporting here! In post #5 of the current topic I said "I'm pretty sure I've heard this before... But I don't know where..." - so you are the guy that reported it for the first time! Thanks for bringing my sanity back!

Let me try to summarize what we know.

I think the mechanism at work here is: sudden voltage change caused by a (low impedance) load, like a battery charger, (speed controlled) motor or capacitive load (possibly LED, like chaicka said in post #28). It happens very often when the load is connected to the same circuit as the dimmer. I almost never occurs if the load is on another circuit (different circuit breakers).

Rather specific to this is issue is the fact that the dimmer reports "over-current" and switches off for a few seconds, but after that works as normal.

I think it depends on the type of load too, but unfortunately my sample is too small to conclude anything. @TRicky, you also mention in the other post that you have "halogen, *connected to an electronic transformer*", just like the topic starter and like me.

Although the symptoms are similar to:

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I think the issue is quite different and non of the workarounds in that topic apply.

Let's see what Fibaro recommends, to mitigate the effect or solve it completely.

If you have any questions, just ask!

[TRicky 84]

@ Peter, always happy to bring some sanity to this world. But I better start with myself first

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I can't find the reply from fibaro anymore (strange enough). But it was quite worthless.

 

These problems occur on dimmer 2's which are heavy loaded, 210W and 300W electronic transformators with halogen spots.

I made 2 movies that day of my first post:

 

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[petergebruers 1,268]

@ Peter, always happy to bring some sanity to this world. But I better start with myself first

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I can't find the reply from fibaro anymore (strange enough). But it was quite worthless.

 

These problems occur on dimmer 2's which are heavy loaded, 210W and 300W electronic transformators with halogen spots.

I made 2 movies that day of my first post:

 

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Good music! The turn on delay on my bench is lower, I wonder what difference there is...

Can you please contact [email protected] again? They have more to go on right now, so I'd expect them to give a better answer

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[TRicky 84]

Good music! The turn on delay on my bench is lower, I wonder what difference there is...

Can you please contact [email protected] again? They have more to go on right now, so I'd expect them to give a better answer

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Thanks, Faithless remains great!

 

I'll sent support a new mail with this info included 

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[TRicky 84]

Fibaro support is informed.

Let's see what they can find out........

[TRicky 84]

Case Notification for #43948

[treboR 3]

Thanks guys for keeping the topic hot.

 

In my case I have the problem on even not heavily loaded dimmers ( 70 watt ) and they would show the same behavior.

 

It's pretty lame having to explain to people that come over that your lights go out when plugging in some charger

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[TRicky 84]

Thanks guys for keeping the topic hot.

 

In my case I have the problem on even not heavily loaded dimmers ( 70 watt ) and they would show the same behavior.

 

It's pretty lame having to explain to people that come over that your lights go out when plugging in some charger

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Yup, if your home is like a showroom and then lights are turning off is quite a disaster......

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[TRicky 84]

I received yesterday a response from Fibaro Support.

I have to sent 2 modules to them so they can investigate them.

 

So you see, despite of all complaints on this forum, Fibaro Support is doing their job!

[treboR 3]

Great news! I'm very interested in the outcome. But sending all my modules RMA would be problematic.. Then I'll end up without any light

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