New Fibaro Relays - FGS213 FGS223

[Guest fat]

I found a manual to a new relay from Fibaro that was recently certified by the Z Wave Alliance. I was hoping that they would have high inrush current support but couldn't see anytime in the manual. Looks like they might not work that well with LED lights. Fingers crossed that I am wrong

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[speedy 64]

Hmm, well spotted.

Whats really bad is this:

• Do not connect types of load other than resistive! 

This sentence forbids you to connect anything with electrical circuits, florescent lights, transformers, LED fixtures, LED´s drivers etc etc..

So you can only connect bulbs that don not contain any electronics as these loads are not resistive.

 

This renders this device not compatible with all capacitive and inductive loads.

So if you want to control a 3 phase relay thats not allowed because that is not a resistive load, its inductive or possibly capacitive.

 

And it also says:

• Electrical appliances which power consumption does not exceed the limit for a specified device  

But this doesn't matter as its not allowed to connect anything other than a resistive load = A radiator with analog thermostat.

If its a digital thermostat its not a resistive load and so you can't connect the radiator.

 

 

I think the manual might need som tweaking as i believe this must be a misstake.

[chaicka 195]

A relay that cannot support LED lighting???

 

If so, then its use case is too limited and restricting its own marketability. Most newer places done up (constructed or renovated) in the last 3 years are swinging towards complete LED lightings since it is cheaper, longer life cycle and reduction in heat dissipation (hence reduction in energy to cool the place via air-conditioners).

 

How about Power Distribution (e.g. Eubiq Power Tracks/Plugs, APC PDUs)?

 

These have electronic circuits within the device/appliance to regulate or whatever functions it is design to provide.

[chaicka 195]

Page 13 - Association:

 

Why is it talking about Dimmer when this manual is for Relay Switch 2 (FGS2x3)?

[Guest fat]

A relay that cannot support LED lighting???

If so, then its use case is too limited and restricting its own marketability. Most newer places done up (constructed or renovated) in the last 3 years are swinging towards complete LED lightings since it is cheaper, longer life cycle and reduction in heat dissipation (hence reduction in energy to cool the place via air-conditioners).

How about Power Distribution (e.g. Eubiq Power Tracks/Plugs, APC PDUs)?

These have electronic circuits within the device/appliance to regulate or whatever functions it is design to provide.

Almost my entire house is LED (only a feature light is halogen). I have been waiting for LED suitable relays for a while now so I can finish off my lighting automation. Looks like I might have to go with Philio as they support high inrush current

[chaicka 195]

I am 100% LED lightings (99% Philips) and the current Fibaro Relays and Dimmer 2 works fine.

 

Surprise to see the upcoming Z-wave Plus Relays to be more restrictive.

[Guest fat]

I am running a combo of dimmer 1 and dimmer 2 for my LEDlights and they are fine but I've heard of people having issues with the current dual relays welding when using them with LED lights

[chaicka 195]

I am running a combo of dimmer 1 and dimmer 2 for my LEDlights and they are fine but I've heard of people having issues with the current dual relays welding when using them with LED lights

 

That is due to the circuit design, driver used, quality of product, etc - a different topic.

[tinman 1,028]

- Active power and energy metering functionality

- Z-Wave range tester

- Overheat and overcurrent protection

 

these things are more important.

 

When you really have high load LEDs (a lot of them), use MCOHome MH-S411H

[speedy 64]

- Active power and energy metering functionality

- Z-Wave range tester

- Overheat and overcurrent protection

these things are more important.

Well, those are nice features but you still can't (are not allowed) to connect LEDs (or anything else with electronics in them) according to the manual.

Only plain lightbulbs.

Over-current protection might not even work if you connect anything else that resistive loads.

That's what the manual says.

[Usul 0]

Can Fibaro confirm if you really can't use these for leds?

And sort of retire the product if that's the case cause we're in 2017 guys...

 

I have them connected to led lights and they do work, so what's the actual issue with leds?

[speedy 64]

@Usul 

No need to ask Fibaro, it’s all in the official manual page 5.

“• Do not connect types of loads other than resistive and incandescent!”

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I still can’t believe it but it’s true as it reached the official manual.

It also doesn’t say it’s ok to use for inductive loads, so no motors/pumps or similar allowed.

Acuallty, not even a relay is ok as it’s not resistive.

So, you can’t use it for anything electronic or inductive.

 

It will work but it might break after some time due to inrush current and also by not following the user manual when installing electrical devices, you might get in to problems if there is an issue, at least here in Sweden.

 

@Fibaro

Even if we can’t use 10A on non resistive loads I’m fine with at least 300w @ cos pi 0.8 (or something really safe for the device) but is has to be in the manual so we can follow the regulations.

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by speedy

[Usul 0]

@Speedy thanks for that.

I'd really like a @Fibaro answer on this tbh. The actual determination of leds as resistive / inductive is not at all clear to begin with, it's neither of them but ppl way smarter than me don't seem to agree on how to treat them according to my googling around.

So yeah, I still want them to clarify if these can be used on leds or not please, not much to ask is it???

[I.Srodka 4]

Hi @speedy, @Usul!

 

Thank you for your interest in your product!

 

Of course, what you cited from our Manual is 100% correct.

 

Moreover, on this page: 

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You can find a table:

 

Rated load current table:

Device	Load type	IEC standards	UL standards
Single Switch 2 (FGS-213)	Resistive	8A	6.5A
Single Switch 2 (FGS-213)	Incandescent	8A	5A
Double Switch 2 (FGS-213)	Resistive	6.5A per channel 10A overall	6A per channel 9.5A overall
Double Switch 2 (FGS-223)	Incandescent	6.5A per channel 10A overall	3A per channel

 

As you noticed there is no inductive or capacitive load. We do not specifically allow any other types of loads and we do not support it. However, when it comes purely technical matters, it may be possible to connect other types of load up the half of advisable value for resistive load.

[speedy 64]

On 13.11.2017 at 3:22 PM, I.Srodka said:

As you noticed there is no inductive or capacitive load. We do not specifically allow any other types of loads and we do not support it. However, when it comes purely technical matters, it may be possible to connect other types of load up the half of advisable value for resistive load.

 

Hi @I.Srodka, thanks for the reply.

 

I can only talk for Sweden here as i know the rules but i would be surprised if these rules don't apply to other countries.

 

If its not stated i the manual its not allowed, period.

If its installed and not according to the manual then insurance becomes invalid and you break the law. 

If we can install "load up the half of advisable value for resistive load." then it must be stated in the manual or its irrelevant!

 

So in Sweden we cant use this relay for anything, its basically useless. (other than for lightbulbs and halogen lights and radiators with analog temp switch.)

But these are by law on the way out, LEDs are the future and it almost exclusively installed today.

But we cant install them (LEDs) as its not allowed (capacitive load)

 

@Fibaro

This is really a terrible design decision, almost every load is ether capacitive och inductive.

How are we supposed to control motors, LEDs, chargers, lights, anything with electronics?

We cant even install a relay in-between as a relay is capacitive och inductive!

 

Could you please elaborate around the thought process to restrict this piece of hardware to the point of being unusable?

 

The only choice for us installers is to go with a different brand, but for me i really don't want to do that.

I want to use Fibaro all the way, please help us do so!

 

[petergebruers 1,265]

1 hour ago, speedy said:

If its not stated i the manual its not allowed, period.

If its installed and not according to the manual then insurance becomes invalid and you break the law. 

If we can install "load up the half of advisable value for resistive load." then it must be stated in the manual or its irrelevant!

 

I hear what you are saying... There is a difference between "the law" and "this should work" and "it is out of spec but it will not burn your house" and "this is out of spec but works, but reduces life by 90%" and I can think of some more variations. If you are on a public forum, I think it is especially true to clearly state what you are talking about (as you did). And a manual should be accurate as well.

 

I do understand Fibaro wants manuals to be clear to all users... So they simplify things. On the other hand, they might be able to specify more details, like relay manufacturers do, in a technical appendix.

 

Here is an example. It is a snippet from Finder 46 series. That is a rather big relay compared to FGS modules but it is not about the spec, it is only about how they present it:

 

Please login or register to see this attachment.

 

But then you have to understand what AC1 and AC15 means. And then I did not mention the graphs for various parameters...

 

I admit, I am talking out loud...

 

But then again, there is a saying amongst engineers: "there are lies, damned lies and datasheets"

[I.Srodka 4]

Hi @speedy!

 

I do understand your point of view.

 

1 hour ago, speedy said:

@Fibaro

This is really a terrible design decision, almost every load is ether capacitive och inductive.

It's quite popular decision made by other manufactures and it is simply the size of this module that limits its power.

 

1 hour ago, speedy said:

How are we supposed to control motors, LEDs, chargers, lights, anything with electronics?

We have this in mind, it hasn't turned out to any physical product just yet, but it's an area we monitor.

 

1 hour ago, speedy said:

Could you please elaborate around the thought process to restrict this piece of hardware to the point of being unusable?

It is still usable in many cases.

 

@petergebruers

22 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

I do understand Fibaro wants manuals to be clear to all users... So they simplify things.

That's one thing, but...

 

23 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

On the other hand, they might be able to specify more details, like relay manufacturers do, in a technical appendix.

The appendix you attached is by the relay manufacturer. 

 

We assumed that the information such as: "Contact configuration: 2CO" is completely pointless from the point of view of the Fibaro Installer, am I right? 

Moreover, stating maximum peak current is also quite risky and with our volume of sold products we prefer to just leave the safe value.

 

All in all, @petergebruers if you have any ideas, suggestions about what we should include in the datasheet that would made your life as a Fibaro Installer easier you are more than welcome to tell us : )

 

[speedy 64]

22 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

Here is an example. It is a snippet from Finder 46 series. That is a rather big relay compared to FGS modules but it is not about the spec, it is only about how they present it:

Please login or register to see this attachment.

There is a big differense here, is ALL about the spec and its presentation.

This relay i can use as intended, its clear what and how it can be used and what loads are allowed.

In Sweden every product sold has this information, how else do we know what to use and if it works for our specific situation?

 

22 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

But then you have to understand what AC1 and AC15 means. And then I did not mention the graphs for various parameters...

Exactly, its not allowed by law for non certified persons (non electricians) to install Fibaro products(relays, dimmers etc), so the people who understand these numbers are the once who are allowed to install them. So its a non issue. (In Sweden at least.)

 

22 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

But then again, there is a saying amongst engineers: "there are lies, damned lies and datasheets"

Sure, i understan what you are saying, and i also "know" that some things "work" in some cases, but i only do that at home  

But i would NEVER do this at a customers house, if i do and i get caught my licence is revoked and I'm not allowed to install anything and can be charged with a felony!

So this is a BIG deal.

[speedy 64]

54 minutes ago, I.Srodka said:

It's quite popular decision made by other manufactures and it is simply the size of this module that limits its power.

That is all Ok, but if the internal component supports loads the the only thing missing is that you state it in the manual.

How can we today control ex LEDs with Fibaro products if we dont use a dimmer V2?

 

This info is from a competitor of yours and a similar 2x relay component:

* In the case of loads other than resistive, pay attention to the value of cosφ and if necessary use a load lower than the rated load.

Max current for cosφ = 0.4 is 2 A at 250 VAC, 3 A at 24 VDC.

 

Now this relay i can use for anything, its clearly stated the cos fi and the load so all is well.

Its not 10A but i doesn't matter, its the information that counts and i can now use it to control other big relays that control motors etc or other loads.

 

Quote

We have this in mind, it hasn't turned out to any physical product just yet, but it's an area we monitor.

The competitors have the same size of product and support all loads, maybe its a question of just changing the internal component or specifying the loads within the spec that you choose?

 

Quote

The appendix you attached is by the relay manufacturer. 

We assumed that the information such as: "Contact configuration: 2CO" is completely pointless from the point of view of the Fibaro Installer, am I right? 

Yes, that particular data point might be but all the other ones are really important.

 

Quote

Moreover, stating maximum peak current is also quite risky and with our volume of sold products we prefer to just leave the safe value.

You don't have to specify the maximum, use 50% or what you consider safe when testing your product.

Aren't the products designed around this already? Your "peak" (or rated current) resistive = 10A.

Maximum Peak you can leave out as this limits the installer to make the choice (for resistive loads).

 

 

Quote

All in all, @petergebruers if you have any ideas, suggestions about what we should include in the datasheet that would made your life as a Fibaro Installer easier you are more than welcome to tell us : )

 

I am also a certified Fibaro installer so this applies to me to.

I make a living of installing smart homes with Fibaro products so this is very important to me!

 

So for me (if the relay in the module supports it) Please specify:

Max load inductive: X VA and cos fi 0.Y

Max load capacitive: X VA and cos fi 0.Y

Use VA or W, doesn't matter, but VA and cosfi might be safer.

 

And the Max values does not have to be max for your product / relay etc.

Use the max that you are comfortable with so we as installers can be as free as possible to use your products for all situations.

 

@I.Srodka

Thanks for replying in this thread, its much appreciated!

I dont want to complain i only want a Fibaro system that is as flexible as possible, and i think this is a key issue to be able to control all loads.

No matter if the end result is 2A, i would prefer more but i can now work around a limitation with other solutions in combination with Fibaro products.

Edited November 15, 2017 by speedy

[I.Srodka 4]

24 minutes ago, speedy said:

That is all Ok, but if the internal component supports loads the the only thing missing is that you state it in the manual.

We're not missing to state that. It wasn't rated for those kinds of load so we do not state it.

 

27 minutes ago, speedy said:

How can we today control ex LEDs with Fibaro products if we dont use a dimmer V2?

So you do admit that we have a product that would fulfill your needs.

 

47 minutes ago, speedy said:

So for me (if the relay in the module supports it) Please specify:

Unfortunately not, but we will take it under consideration in the future revisions of this product.

 

48 minutes ago, speedy said:

I dont want to complain i only want a Fibaro system that is as flexible as possible, and i think this is a key issue to be able to control all loads.

By all means, thank you for your valuable input!

[petergebruers 1,265]

1 hour ago, speedy said:

 

Quote

The appendix you attached is by the relay manufacturer. 

We assumed that the information such as: "Contact configuration: 2CO" is completely pointless from the point of view of the Fibaro Installer, am I right? 

Yes, that particular data point might be but all the other ones are really important.

 

I see this might confuse people, my bad... This was a copy/paste from a part of the Finder 46 spec and that relays comes in 2 flavours:  SPDT and DPDT. The double pole relay is in the first column. I was too lazy to edit the picture to obtain the SPDT.  If Fibaro was ever to produce a relay with double pole relay, the spec would be relevant though.

 

While we are clearing up confusion... I'd like to point out that people might be tempted to buy a 2 x 8 A relay then parallel the contacts to obtain a 16 A relay, but that is actually not a good idea. Load will not be shared equally by the contacts...

 

1 hour ago, speedy said:

 

Quote

All in all, @petergebruers if you have any ideas, suggestions about what we should include in the datasheet that would made your life as a Fibaro Installer easier you are more than welcome to tell us : )

 

I am also a certified Fibaro installer so this applies to me to.

I make a living of installing smart homes with Fibaro products so this is very important to me!

 

I am not an installer, I am an end-user. I am an engineer and in Belgium that makes me a qualified electrician. I studied "power production, distribution and power electronics". So I have to be careful what I say, because the law tells me I can be held personally responsible for mistakes (and not point my finger at somebody else)  Home Automation is my hobby.

 

That is why I often talk about safety and regulations...

 

1 hour ago, speedy said:

So for me (if the relay in the module supports it) Please specify:

Max load inductive: X VA and cos fi 0.Y

Max load capacitive: X VA and cos fi 0.Y

Use VA or W, doesn't matter, but VA and cosfi might be safer.

 

Yes, I think that is a good idea. They do something similar in  the manual of the FGD-212.

 

In practice, however, it still does not a guarantee trouble-free operation and good lifespan. Power factor does give some indication if a load will cause trouble or not, because it is somewhat related to inrush current. I'd like to see "inrush current" (as specified by manufacturers of power supplies) as a spec. Like the AC1, and AC15 on the Finder datasheet. I have seen specification along the lines "this switch can drive x microfarad at 230 V" but LED manufacturers so not seem to publish this information. Unfortunately, "inrush current" is a difficult topic. A 20 W LED can weld the contacts of a small relay, while on paper power factor and load might be in spec. BTW did you happen to read my very old topic 2013, pertaining to the OLD Fibaro relays: 

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The FGD-212 is good at driving capacitive loads because it was designed with LEDs in mind. It uses low on-resistance MOSFETs and it has overload protection, short circuit protection, thermal protection... Which means, it will refuse to turn on a capacitive load which it cannot handle. This sometimes confuses people, because they add up the total power of al LED lamps and that might be in spec, but the dimmer does not turn on and reports over-current. It rarely happens, but I can simulate it, but attaching a certain type of power supply. FGD-212 can drive a lot of LED bulbs, but a few users managed to add so many that it trips the protections. Under the same conditions, a relay will stick or degrade. Neither make you happy. An advantage of Dimmer 2 is it will not "drive itself to death" like the older TRIAC based dimmer. It will not "stick" or deteriorate like the older relays. I would say, the newer relays are better, at least judging by the number of reports on this forum. I cannot give numbers, I do not count them, it is just my idea... But as Mr @I.Srodka pointed out: "As you noticed there is no inductive or capacitive load. We do not specifically allow any other types of loads and we do not support it."... 

 

To my knowledge, the  only "power relay" for motors is the Aeotec heavy duty switch. It is big and expensive...

 

I think we cannot further discuss the "official" way of driving an LED with the FGS-2x3 because of what has been said before. And also not because of this:

 

4 hours ago, speedy said:

I can only talk for Sweden here as i know the rules but i would be surprised if these rules don't apply to other countries.

 

If its not stated i the manual its not allowed, period.

I cannot argument against this statement. I can only say: "inrush current limiters" do exist and will prolong the life of your relay and fix the welding problem, but that does not solve the legal issues you have. So I cannot make a public recommendation.