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  • 1

Phantom menace (RGBW)


Kuba13
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Right so here is a problem:

SOMETIMES (rather sparsly but still enough to warrant me bugging Fibaro about it) RGBW makes phanthom associations for no bloody reasson.

 

It happened a while back and only replacement of specific RGBW module seemed to help that was in pre "100" era tho.

Most recent case i have are 2 RGBW modules (v 2.5) running on same HC2 4.100, reading tempriture and humidity via IN1 and IN2.

 

Confirmed at least one of them caused it (once disconnected from power the random behaviour stoped), second of those RGBW is very strong suspect. Sad thing is that the second RGBW seems to have worked fine untill the first one was disconnected.

 

Now i seek aid, advice and wisdom. if annyone had this happen to them please add your controller, its FW and mofule's FW aswell - lets see if we can help fibaro figure this one out!

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Another user with lots of experience joined the discussion. He started a new topic, not knowing about this one.

 

And I forgot to ask if he could join this topic, so now lots of stuff going on in the other topic. But before you start to read: unfortunately... no solution... no solid explanation.

 

 

Edited by petergebruers
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Do you mean... your RGBW randomly triggers some other device? I'd say: plausible ;-)

I've done some "rogue module" hunting myself, that ended in ------- full reset of complete network. Problem solved. Did have some suspects, but it all remained too... hypothetical.

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10 hours ago, petergebruers said:

Do you mean... your RGBW randomly triggers some other device? I'd say: plausible ;-)

I've done some "rogue module" hunting myself, that ended in ------- full reset of complete network. Problem solved. Did have some suspects, but it all remained too... hypothetical.

 

Well, that is exactly what Kuba13 means. But when triggering of random devices started, i saw in customers project, that temperature and humidity measured by RGBW is stucked in one value. It is stucked for a week right now.

So maybe RGBW is broken and needs to be reseted or replaced by different one.

 

But There Is question for Fibaro, why phantom associations happening. Especialy with RGBW modules. If modul is broken, why It cannot stay only broken and why it messing with whole Z-Wave network.

Edited by jakub.jezek
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I can confirm as well, I have seen the same behavious with an RGBW module used in input mode. Suddenly the module created random associations making my whole house go wild. A full reset of the module cleared for some time, but the behaviour returned, unpredicatbly. So in the end I decided to exclude the RGBW from the network and I replaced it by a z-uno module to do the sensor reading (much more flexible :-))

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  • I did not experience what you call "phantom associations" with this module. I'm not sure if anything could or would be visible in the "associations window". I'm not even sure if that would help diagnose this issue in any way :-( But you can try to straighten the associations of the module. If you *change* associations (meaning: add, save, remove, save some device to some group) invalid data will be removed from the module.
  • I did experience network trouble with RGBW an "IN" mode and the issues might be related. I had a noisy sensor connected to this module, and I had set "Parameter 43 Reporting 0-10v analog inputs change threshold." to the minimum. It probably reported changes multiple times per second. It might be visible in the event log. That caused delays.
  • I saw stuck values long time ago, it always ended in reconfigure, or soft reconfigure, etcetera. I didn't pay attention lately because of the next point: :-)
  • I can't test this because some rodent chew through my sensor cable. :-):-)
  • It *might* be a firmware issue, but that is a long shot :-(
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8 minutes ago, ReneNL said:

I can confirm as well, I have seen the same behavious with an RGBW module used in input mode. Suddenly the module created random associations making my whole house go wild. A full reset of the module cleared for some time, but the behaviour returned, unpredicatbly. So in the end I decided to exclude the RGBW from the network and I replaced it by a z-uno module to do the sensor reading (much more flexible :-))

 

Short thread hijack: what kind of sensor are you using on the z-uno? I'm very tempted to buy one of those boards ;-) I've not been following the product lately, because after they announced it they were unavailable for quite some time.

 

Please login or register to see this link.

 

 

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Well, for phantom associations

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could help. But it is only for US frequency. Support from z-waveproducts.com told me, that for Europe, it will be available in 6 month.

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The z-uno is an amazing little device, works perfectly on my HC2 system for half a year or so. I use it in my garden to measure the soil moisture which triggers the irrigation. I also added a dusk sensor to it (simple LDR). The moisture sensor I used is this one: 

Please login or register to see this link.

 from Decagon. Quite expensive, but durable it seems/I hope.

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On topic: does "whole house go wild" mean most of your lights started flashing? That would mean an "alarm frame" was detected. Unfortunately, either a device transmitted that alarm frame or some weird coincidence produced one on your network (can't prove that, it's a theory of mine). As far as I know there is no tool to diagnose this. But you can make modules "immune". For instance, dimmer 2 = FGD-212 has parameter "40. Response to General Purpose Alarm" and the default is "load blinking". So you have to set p40-p43 to 0 to disable this. I usually don't bother to change this...

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3 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

Well, for phantom associations

Please login or register to see this link.

could help. But it is only for US frequency. Support from z-waveproducts.com told me, that for Europe, it will be available in 6 month.

 

Awesome find. Sounds great from the description!

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4 minutes ago, ReneNL said:

The z-uno is an amazing little device, works perfectly on my HC2 system for half a year or so. I use it in my garden to measure the soil moisture which triggers the irrigation. I also added a dusk sensor to it (simple LDR). The moisture sensor I used is this one: 

Please login or register to see this link.

 from Decagon. Quite expensive, but durable it seems/I hope.

 

Thanks for reporting back. I studied several available technologies for soil moisture measurement and I think your sensor is the way to go (measuring dielectric constant with high frequency signal). You can put two nails in the soil too, and connect them to you *duino. but they'll last only a few months and can only tell "too wet" from "too dry" :-)

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8 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

On topic: does "whole house go wild" mean most of your lights started flashing? That would mean an "alarm frame" was detected. Unfortunately, either a device transmitted that alarm frame or some weird coincidence produced one on your network (can't prove that, it's a theory of mine). As far as I know there is no tool to diagnose this. But you can make modules "immune". For instance, dimmer 2 = FGD-212 has parameter "40. Response to General Purpose Alarm" and the default is "load blinking". So you have to set p40-p43 to 0 to disable this. I usually don't bother to change this...

 

No, it wasn't an alarm. What happened is that many associations apparently were made (although not visible in the associations panel) to other devices. So as soon as there was a sensor update from the RGBW (e.g. soil moisture 60%), several curtains would close to 60%, various lights on 60%, etc. Particularly not funny when it happened during the night...

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43 minutes ago, ReneNL said:

 

No, it wasn't an alarm. What happened is that many associations apparently were made (although not visible in the associations panel) to other devices. So as soon as there was a sensor update from the RGBW (e.g. soil moisture 60%), several curtains would close to 60%, various lights on 60%, etc. Particularly not funny when it happened during the night...

 

I see! Thank you for elaborating!

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  • 1 hour ago, ReneNL said:

    I can confirm as well, I have seen the same behavious with an RGBW module used in input mode. Suddenly the module created random associations making my whole house go wild. A full reset of the module cleared for some time, but the behaviour returned, unpredicatbly. So in the end I decided to exclude the RGBW from the network and I replaced it by a z-uno module to do the sensor reading (much more flexible :-))

    Please detail version of FW, HC unit and its FW.

     

     

    1 hour ago, petergebruers said:
    • I did not experience what you call "phantom associations" with this module. I'm not sure if anything could or would be visible in the "associations window". I'm not even sure if that would help diagnose this issue in any way :-( But you can try to straighten the associations of the module. If you *change* associations (meaning: add, save, remove, save some device to some group) invalid data will be removed from the module.
    • I did experience network trouble with RGBW an "IN" mode and the issues might be related. I had a noisy sensor connected to this module, and I had set "Parameter 43 Reporting 0-10v analog inputs change threshold." to the minimum. It probably reported changes multiple times per second. It might be visible in the event log. That caused delays.
    • I saw stuck values long time ago, it always ended in reconfigure, or soft reconfigure, etcetera. I didn't pay attention lately because of the next point: :-)
    • I can't test this because some rodent chew through my sensor cable. :-):-)
    • It *might* be a firmware issue, but that is a long shot :-(

    (1) Yeah it happens rarely, i've encountered those associations before (i estimate it was 4.08x or even 4.7x patch) - that was resovled by replacing RGBW, it dosent show on the device that acts messed up thats for sure,

    (2) Delays and random devicess activating could be related? hmm sounds fishy but i am not going to dismis annything at this point as i am completly baffled.

    (3) I am fairly certain Jakub did that at very least few times by now but i am not sure,

    (4) A rodent... well that is messed up! i am sorry for your loss of cabble.

    (5) Happened on few diffrent firmwares, i have 2 confirmed and 2 highly suspicious ones (one was in our system and one is the second RGBW at customer's instalation)

     

     

    1 hour ago, petergebruers said:

    On topic: does "whole house go wild" mean most of your lights started flashing? That would mean an "alarm frame" was detected. Unfortunately, either a device transmitted that alarm frame or some weird coincidence produced one on your network (can't prove that, it's a theory of mine). As far as I know there is no tool to diagnose this. But you can make modules "immune". For instance, dimmer 2 = FGD-212 has parameter "40. Response to General Purpose Alarm" and the default is "load blinking". So you have to set p40-p43 to 0 to disable this. I usually don't bother to change this...

    It sometimes switches on random things, but dose not appear to be following anny pattern with this activity. certainly nothing as structured as alarm behaviour.

     

    For example a pathway heating was turned on recently (BEFORE the snow would justify it). and untill it was turned off by customer, lights regularly just come on for no reason and just stay that way.

     

     

    sorry for collective reply but i was just not able to reply untill this point.

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    Could it be interference on the band that z-wave uses? so the issue comes from outside?

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  • 38 minutes ago, jimicr said:

    Could it be interference on the band that z-wave uses? so the issue comes from outside?

     

    As mentioned before i am not dismissing annything at this point. (i personally blame politicians, because i allways blame politicians)

     

    Here is why i suspect it might NOT be interference: to activate a device and have it do something you need to have: ID of the network, ID of the device and communicate on specific frequency, oh right and you allso need to send the specific action order i guess.

    Interference is much more likely (in my opinion) to either drown out the signall of Z-Wave completly, or just bounce off due to lack of ID.

    If i understand wireless communication correctly than this Network and Device ID are in header of each packet and command would be the message - so not only you need to know those things it has to be in specific order. That dosent sound likely to happen with itnerference.

     

    Now that is not to say such thing can not happen, i am appritiative of your input. I just assume that it looks less likely than device just going crazy and trying to associate things to itselve. (YES i am calling RGBW equivalent of attention who* Seeker)

    Edited by Kuba13
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    Can't tell the exact version(s) of the devices, too long ago... But it was before Fibaro released the firmware update feature on HC2 (pre-4.082?) and the RGBW was a few years old.

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    Hi,

    I have a menace of sorts and some of what I read above seems to match

    Since I upgraded to 4.120 I've had a number of times where random lights switch themselves on.

    Today the sunroom light (fibaro dimmer) was flashing, two other lights came on and the RGB strip itself was also flashing. My wife said it would also be seen in the iOS app.

    earlier in the week all the kitchen and hall lights came on.

    I've also had some devices that were very solid beforehand were indicating they were dead  

     

    I'm running HC2, fw 4.120 ,

    The RGBW controller is FGRGBWM.441 fw 2.5

     

    I have removed power from it and am rebooting the HC2 now.

    Does this sound like a similar set (or subset) of symptoms to the what other users have experienced 

     

    If so - is the solution exclude/include or return for replacement ?

     

    Thanks

    -f

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    HI @AutoFrank,

    If problem is in RGBW devices, then scene in attachment should help. It cleans up all associations. It cleans RGBW of associations through API.

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

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    Let me put it this way. I had a outdoor lux sensor. Connected to an RGBW, obviously set to input mode. Until a rodent chew through the cable. I repaired it, but I also thought it would be a good opportunity to experiment. So I excluded the module and took it out of the garden shed and put it on my desk. The ghost disappeared. So I do think the RGBW can send random on commands. But only when set to input mode. My other modules are in output mode...

     

     

    9 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

    HI @AutoFrank,

    If problem is in RGBW devices, then scene in attachment should help. It cleans up all associations. It cleans RGBW of associations through API.

     

    Please login or register to see this attachment.

     

    Thanks for reminding me about this. I've seen your script before, but I haven't tried it yet. Not that I don't trust your script, I just didn't find the time to test if it also helps with my ghost problem. I might put back my outdoor light sensor and try it one of these days...

    Edited by petergebruers
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