Advice please: Is this set-up too ambitious?

[k1s 1]

Hi, 

I’m completely new to home automation/Z-Wave (so please be gentle), and have some questions about the what I understand could be the components I’ll need – see below.  I’d also greatly appreciate advice on whether the system I’m about to attempt to have installed is feasible/reliable at this stage of the evolution of home automation, or whether I should think of this as a kind of add/on but ensure everything has a manual / hard-wired back up/ override.

First, some context about what I’m trying to achieve: My house is being extended and extensively refurbished. We’ll have a ground floor with water-based underfloor heating throughout in 3 zones across: Entrance Hall, Downstairs WC & Living Room, TV Room; Kitchen; Storage room. 3 bedrooms upstairs and study will have radiators, and 3 bath/shower rooms with electric underfloor heating.

 

The idea is to have Z-Wave enabled control over:

•         all three heating types (timing, temperature): wet underfloor x 3 zones; electric underfloor x 3 bathrooms; radiators (1 zone for bedrooms +1 for study).

•          Light switches (turned off based on occupancy) x30

•          Smoke alarms x8

•          CO Alarms x2

•          Sensors for doors and windows left open x10

•          Front door lock

•          4 extractor fans (based on humidity)

•          3 ‘security’ cameras (2 inside, 1 outside)

 

For the lights, we’re not intending to have any fancy scenes / mood based but there are 8 two-way operations

 The components I’m looking for are:

• Aeon labs multisensor 6 Gen5 (ceiling mounted with USB power) – principally for occupancy based lights off and as room thermostats, but also as a backup for the humidity-based extractor control for the Vent Axia 403837 extractors that will be in the bathrooms.  I’ve read mixed reviews about the early accuracy and reliability of these multisensors – is the settled view that they work OK? 

• TKB double and single dimmers and paddles e.g. TZ55D - Gen5 – I can’t help thinking the behind the wall plate modules must be harder for the controller to connect with – is that valid?

• Z Wave Popp Smoke Detector-with Indoor Siren Gen5 – hard wired

• Z-Wave Popp CO Detector

•  Everspring Door & window sensors

• Heatit Wall Thermostats?

• Radiator valves Z-Wave Popp Heating Thermostat?  The idea is that they and/or the Aeon labs multisensors send messages that control the boiler to heat water and open the required zone valves

• Fibaro dual actuators for the UFH manifolds and radiator zone valves…or Qubino relays?

•  Something to control the boiler (Vaillant ecoTEC plus 637) Secure Boiler Receiver HRT or…?

• Front door lock: something insurance approved? Yale Smart Living Keyfree Connected Smart Lock?

• Some kind of sirens -  Popp?

• No idea which security cameras – the more unobtrusive the better – suggestions welcome

As for a controller, I’m being steered towards Fibaro HC2 or VeraSecure by the building contractor who is doing the rest of the work and intending to outsource the z-wave configuration.

I tend to be optimistic about technology, but the sorts of things I’m reading on both vendor’s forums are a bit worrying.

I’d greatly appreciate practical advice [based on experience] about the suitability/compatibility and reliability of components, whether I’ve missed something, and the relative merits of the controllers.

 

Many thanks in advance.

[krisstoff 3]

HI there, 

 

I have had quite a wide range of z-wave controllers since I started out a few years ago, I started with a HCL then, a vera 3, then a vera plus, and then an Ncube then a Homeseer and Finally I have a HC2.

 

I think reliability wise, Vera was amazing until the UI7 update came out, then I always started running into issues with new devices, geo fencing never worked and the UI is just horrible to look at. Saying that all the scenes used to run without a glitch and she never missed a beat. 

 

I have been living with my HC2 now for a few months, so I5 have had time to settle in with it, I find response time is really good scenes fire quickly (sometimes they don't fire at all) but I will work on these issues as I am sure it is just a few little tweaks to be made. 

 

I think ultimately both systems have their pros and cons, but once set up both systems will perform well. the tipping point for me is the iPad app (I am now buying the odd older gen iPads for rooms to run the Fibaro app), just because they look really nice and are user friendly.

 

So what I am getting at, both systems will perform the way you want them to if you have the imagination and the patience to make them. ultimately for me once the system is working as you intend. the app which you find yourself using every day needs to meet your needs and maybe impress visitors! hope this helps!

[Guest FredrikKarlsson]

15 hours ago, k1s said:

 

The idea is to have Z-Wave enabled control over:

 

•         all three heating types (timing, temperature): wet underfloor x 3 zones; electric underfloor x 3 bathrooms; radiators (1 zone for bedrooms +1 for study).

   

•          Light switches (turned off based on occupancy) x30

   

•          Smoke alarms x8

   

•          CO Alarms x2

   

•          Sensors for doors and windows left open x10

   

•          Front door lock

   

•          4 extractor fans (based on humidity)

   

•          3 ‘security’ cameras (2 inside, 1 outside)

   

 

 

For the lights, we’re not intending to have any fancy scenes / mood based but there are 8 two-way operations

 

 The components I’m looking for are:

 

 

• Aeon labs multisensor 6 Gen5 (ceiling mounted with USB power) – principally for occupancy based lights off and as room thermostats, but also as a backup for the humidity-based extractor control for the Vent Axia 403837 extractors that will be in the bathrooms.  I’ve read mixed reviews about the early accuracy and reliability of these multisensors – is the settled view that they work OK? 

   

• TKB double and single dimmers and paddles e.g. TZ55D - Gen5 – I can’t help thinking the behind the wall plate modules must be harder for the controller to connect with – is that valid?

   

• Z Wave Popp Smoke Detector-with Indoor Siren Gen5 – hard wired

   

• Z-Wave Popp CO Detector

   

•  Everspring Door & window sensors

   

• Heatit Wall Thermostats?

   

• Radiator valves Z-Wave Popp Heating Thermostat?  The idea is that they and/or the Aeon labs multisensors send messages that control the boiler to heat water and open the required zone valves

   

• Fibaro dual actuators for the UFH manifolds and radiator zone valves…or Qubino relays?

   

•  Something to control the boiler (Vaillant ecoTEC plus 637) Secure Boiler Receiver HRT or…?

   

• Front door lock: something insurance approved? Yale Smart Living Keyfree Connected Smart Lock?

   

• Some kind of sirens -  Popp?

   

• No idea which security cameras – the more unobtrusive the better – suggestions welcome

   

 

 

 

No, this is not too ambitious, but it it is a larger project. Many opt to start slow and get to know the controller first, and then set everything up. But, I think your plan and ambitions are well balanced, so I'm sure that you will pull this off. You may in the end change controller once or twice due to it not being perfect for your needs, but that is difficult to anticipate. You just need to try one that looks like what you need, and then go with that.

 

On to your questions:

 

* Aeon labs multisensors. Sure, use them. I had one but just excluded it from the system and replaced it with a fibaro multisensor instead. Looks nicer where it needed to be and you can disable led indications of movement on that one, and I was not using the humidity sensor anyway. I will reposition it though. Please have a look at the recessor for the multisensor. 

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Makes for a nicer installation, IMHO.

 

* TKB double dimmers are not actually double dimmers. Only the left paddle dims the load. The right paddle may send commands to other receivers, but then you need a second z-wave dimmer installed at that load. No, connection to the retrofitted dimmers are no problem. Actually, I have had (and am currently having) more problems with the TKB forming a dead node in the network than any other installed dimmers.

 

*" Z Wave Popp Smoke Detector-with Indoor Siren Gen5 – hard wired." Nice. I've opted to use them too throughout my house, and the automatic linking of devices is an excellent feature. I don't think you can trigger the siren from a HC2 scene though. Or maybe you can, somehow.

 

* "Everspring Door & window sensors". Good. But I would go with either the Fibaro door sensors, due to them being much more versatile (you can have  a temperature sensor in them, or connect some other kind of binary switch to trigger the sensor, not just the magnet) or a sensitive strip (which will be invisible). But, of course, they may cost more, so please consider that  factor too (however, see my last comment below)

 

* Heatit thermostats. I use three for my underfloor heating system. I don't use the built in air temperature sensor though, just the floor sensor. If you need air temperature to be weighed in, you need an external air temperature sensor attached, I think, since the internal one seems unreliable. 

 

* Ensurance regulations for locks vary, so please check what's ok in your country. When you look at locks though, I think you need to be careful and really make sure that the lock will connect to your main system. For instance, in Sweden, the Yale lock sold will not connect to a z-wave system, even though Yale in UK seems to be selling locks with Z-wave modules. Also, look at how they handle authentication. It seems, for instance, that the IDlock have RFID tags that 100% replaces the need of a code. So, the lock is then as insecure as an ordinary lock - you only need to get hold of an RFID tag instead. And, IDlock only has 2 codes, and one of them is for administration. So, basically 1 key code, which means that you will not be able to hand out different codes to different people, and then revoke just one of them. Silly things like that may be in the locks, so please make sure that the one you purchase come with good features.

 

* Radiator valves Z-Wave Popp Heating Thermostat - Yes, well I actually use the Danfoss ones instead. Mainly due to them being available when I bought them, but really I think I would still think twice before buying the more expensive heating thermostats with temperature readings to the network, simply because near the radiator may not be the best place to have a temperature reading that is representative for the whole room. If its the only temperature reading in the room, sure. Just apply an offset to the value in the controller or setting, so that the reading may be more representative of what the room temperature is like. The Danfoss one has been around longer and is then probably more supported in controllers, and it costs just 80% of what the Popp runs at. I don't have any problems with the Popp brand in itself (see my comments regarding the smoke detectors above) but in this case I think having a reading of temperature somewhere else in the room is better. For instance, please note that the 1wire sensors that you can attach to a Fibaro door/ window sensor may be wired and that wire can be quite long (the limit is 30 meters

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). So, I would consider installing sensors at a representative place in the room, and connect that to the door or window sensor that I may have installed anyway. Just a thought.

 

Hope this helps. Good luck with your project.

 

Fredrik  

 

 

 

 

 

[k1s 1]

Hi Krisstoff,  Fredrik  , thanks for your kind responses

 

Quote

.Many opt to start slow and get to know the controller first, and then set everything up...

 

I'm thinking now that the house is being completely opened up, this is the time to get everything installed.  Am I right in thinking the lighting can all work without the controller, and that getting the z-wave element to work is a kind of 'optional' extra?  In other words I could get it going at some point later?  Is the same true for the heating?

  Indeed I have specified recessed installation.  I was hoping the Aeon labs sensors would also act as air temperature sensors for the heating.  Is that how you have them?

 

Quote

TKB double dimmers are not actually double dimmers. Only the left paddle dims the load. The right paddle may send commands to other receivers, but then you need a second z-wave dimmer installed at that load. No, connection to the retrofitted dimmers are no problem. Actually, I have had (and am currently having) more problems with the TKB forming a dead node in the network than any other installed dimmers

 

That's disappointing.  I have 60 dimming  switches to buy, and has assuming that 30 doubles would have done it.  

I'm not keen on buying normal switches on top of back-box modules because: 

a) my family's not going to cope well with dimming using a device (phone/tablet) and

b) the installation is more fiddly/expensive

Is there a z-wave double switch that works with each padded as dimmer?

 

Quote

Door & window sensors". I would go with either the Fibaro door sensors...you can ...connect some other kind of binary switch to trigger the sensor, not just the magnet

 

I'm not sure I understand the benefit/scenario - can you explain? 

 

Quote

...a sensitive strip (which will be invisible)

 

 "Invisible" is always good bit £50 each is...well...outrageous

 

Quote

Radiator valves....think twice before buying...thermostats with temperature readings to the network....If its the only temperature reading in the room, sure. Just apply an offset to the value in the controller or setting,...Danfoss...been around longer.

 

The reason I thought Popp was because of the ability to tell give reading to controller, and then to the boiler, but If I understood correctly, the Aeon Labs sensor could also do that.  Will 2 readings to the controller just confuse things.  

I'd like to not just rely on the valves to control the energy use.  I'd rather have boiler not to be heating water if it doesn't need to.  I'm assuming the controller can communicate to something attached to the boiler, but the plumber hasn't heard of z-wave (likes to fit honeywell systems it seems), so I'm hoping something like one of the Hortsmann devices will work.

 

12 hours ago, krisstoff said:

I think reliability wise, Vera was amazing until the UI7 update came out, then I always started running into issues with new devices...the UI is just horrible to look at...the tipping point for me is the [Fibaro] iPad app

 

I'm a big fan of a well designed UI, but I'm hoping to avoid apps as much as possible since my wife and her parents (who are in their 80s but often visit in the house on their own) will simply reject the idea that that need to fiddle and swipe something on their phones to turn on the lights or heating.  I'm given to understand that although the Vera UI is clunkier, the Fibaro doesn't work well with the Yale door locks

 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by k1s

[AutoFrank 372]

17 hours ago, k1s said:

Hi, 

 

I’m completely new to home automation/Z-Wave (so please be gentle), and have some questions about the what I understand could be the components I’ll need – see below.  I’d also greatly appreciate advice on whether the system I’m about to attempt to have installed is feasible/reliable at this stage of the evolution of home automation, or whether I should think of this as a kind of add/on but ensure everything has a manual / hard-wired back up/ override.

 

First, some context about what I’m trying to achieve: My house is being extended and extensively refurbished. We’ll have a ground floor with water-based underfloor heating throughout in 3 zones across: Entrance Hall, Downstairs WC & Living Room, TV Room; Kitchen; Storage room. 3 bedrooms upstairs and study will have radiators, and 3 bath/shower rooms with electric underfloor heating.

 

 

 

 

 

The idea is to have Z-Wave enabled control over:

 

•         all three heating types (timing, temperature): wet underfloor x 3 zones; electric underfloor x 3 bathrooms; radiators (1 zone for bedrooms +1 for study).

   

•          Light switches (turned off based on occupancy) x30

   

•          Smoke alarms x8

   

•          CO Alarms x2

   

•          Sensors for doors and windows left open x10

   

•          Front door lock

   

•          4 extractor fans (based on humidity)

   

•          3 ‘security’ cameras (2 inside, 1 outside)

   

 

 

For the lights, we’re not intending to have any fancy scenes / mood based but there are 8 two-way operations

 

 The components I’m looking for are:

 

 

• Aeon labs multisensor 6 Gen5 (ceiling mounted with USB power) – principally for occupancy based lights off and as room thermostats, but also as a backup for the humidity-based extractor control for the Vent Axia 403837 extractors that will be in the bathrooms.  I’ve read mixed reviews about the early accuracy and reliability of these multisensors – is the settled view that they work OK? 

   

• TKB double and single dimmers and paddles e.g. TZ55D - Gen5 – I can’t help thinking the behind the wall plate modules must be harder for the controller to connect with – is that valid?

   

• Z Wave Popp Smoke Detector-with Indoor Siren Gen5 – hard wired

   

• Z-Wave Popp CO Detector

   

•  Everspring Door & window sensors

   

• Heatit Wall Thermostats?

   

• Radiator valves Z-Wave Popp Heating Thermostat?  The idea is that they and/or the Aeon labs multisensors send messages that control the boiler to heat water and open the required zone valves

   

• Fibaro dual actuators for the UFH manifolds and radiator zone valves…or Qubino relays?

   

•  Something to control the boiler (Vaillant ecoTEC plus 637) Secure Boiler Receiver HRT or…?

   

• Front door lock: something insurance approved? Yale Smart Living Keyfree Connected Smart Lock?

   

• Some kind of sirens -  Popp?

   

• No idea which security cameras – the more unobtrusive the better – suggestions welcome

   

As for a controller, I’m being steered towards Fibaro HC2 or VeraSecure by the building contractor who is doing the rest of the work and intending to outsource the z-wave configuration.

 

I tend to be optimistic about technology, but the sorts of things I’m reading on both vendor’s forums are a bit worrying.

 

I’d greatly appreciate practical advice [based on experience] about the suitability/compatibility and reliability of components, whether I’ve missed something, and the relative merits of the controllers.

 

 

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

 

Hi @k1s

Welcome to the forum...

 

Great question and one that we all probably have asked ourselves at some point.

 

I'll start by saying your choice should match your expectations, particularly around the timeline. Home automation is not plug and play and is very much an early adopters realm. You can go the Control4 route if you are just looking for a solution that somebody else will build and manage but if both the journey and result are what excites you and reckon that you don't mind putting in many long hours, highs and lows or successes and frustrations and perhaps irate family members from time to time time.

If the answer is still YES then perhaps you have indeed some to the right mad-house

 

The HC2 is indeed very capable but is not without its flaws - I've listed my setup

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if you want to look

I am almost 2 years into my journey and still refining my solution, mostly on the software side but i had added some additional hardware of late.

Depending on the scale (and your's seems large) you should plan on a multi year journey (depending on personal circumstance and home much time you can commit)

Much of what you listed is okay and there are some nuances but there are products coming out monthly and some will suit and others will not. I also think that what you want, need and can do will also evolve throughout the journey...

House is about 2 yrs old, 99% airtight, heavily insulated, air-water heat pump, no gas,  2.6 kw PV, about 260 sqm

TKB Switches and dimmers - best looking, reliable for me but downside if the are leading edge dimmers (incandescent and halogen bulbs only)

Fibaro dimmers and relays - very reliable and lots of uses

Aeon MS6 - very difficult to include with the HC2 but once working seem to be reliable enough (14 recently added in ceilings around the house)

Heating - mine is UFH downstairs, radiators upstairs, designed to run as a single whole house system so TRV upstairs would provide no value and individual room temps dont really work and not somethingh I think is practial (unless you have a wine cellar you want to keep cooler) .  Cloud based controller but no public API so a challenge there. we have actuators on some of the UHF manifold but they are set and forget. I monotor the temp around the house, average it up, check the forecast and make the odd adjustment to the system, (which takes about 24 hours to take effect)

PV Panels - cloud based access but MQTT based and not supported by HC2 so another challenge there.

Music  - sonos, hardwired where I wanted, using the node-http-api for control

TV - 6 network cables behind each, All media equipment on racks on the utility room, everything terminates there

I had some battery operated sensors but have not moved to all power adapter/POE based with the exception of 3 

 

My advise would be to focus on the core infrastructure now

Run as much network cable as you can (i have about 1.5k, Cat6a) , 6 points to all TV's, projectors, at least 2 to each room for later use, Hardwire as much of your home network as you can, incl network for garages, gates, access points, POE for tablet positions, etc. Neutrals to all lights switches, at least 50-60mm back boxes in a light switches, speaker cables as required - Think big/lots if you can.

 

....then once all that has been decided, start to think on the individual zwave solutions, av solutions  and hardware (sensors, light controls, etc) and then retrofit as you go along.

If the expression 'crawl, walk, run' resonates with you then Home owner installed HA/Smart Home definitely benefits from this approach

 

hope this helps

-f