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Dimmer 2 module with Non dimmable leds


Jibran
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Question

Hello,

 

I have read many threads and comments about the FIBARO relay that it does not bear the load of LEDS because of high inrush current . 

 

Then i tried to connect a Dimmer 2 with the non dimmable leds. As i have read the parameters of the dimmer 2 that it can detect which is dimmable or non dimmable. 

 

I have found the following results.

 

1. Without Neutral wire :

     When the Dimmer 2 is connected without the N wire, it unable to detect the non dimmable led or light. its simply does not work. Light starts flickering badly. So i disconnected it.

 

2. With Neutral wire :

    When dimmer 2 is connected the the N wire, It successfully detects the non dimmable light or led. For confirmation, I check the parameter of the dimmer , it also detect the load as Non dimmable. Then I changed another parameter of the dimmer , Which force it to only TURN ON and OFF ( NO DIMMING ). It is working but with a little problem.

 

Problem:

     Sometimes when the lights are off,  even when there is no electricity, some leds started to flicker slightly like Flashing. After some time it goes off. 

 

Please can anybody tell me what drives them crazy ? 

 

Thankyou

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17 answers to this question

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@mohammad abu hantash, transformer has it labeled usually. Otherwise, you can consult your dealer or manufacturers website or datasheets.

 

I guess something like this will help with dimming:

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Alternativelly, you can use RGBW behind AC/DC transformer, if load is 12/24 V. But if you want to use switches, then they would need to be on 12/24V too.

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34 minutes ago, Jibran said:

Problem:

     Sometimes when the lights are off,  even when there is no electricity, some leds started to flicker slightly like Flashing. After some time it goes off.

 

@Jibran, too much current i guess. Did you tried to use Bypass?

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You need a bypass. There are many LED designs out there, some designs have a supply that starts because a tiny amount of current passes through the dimmer, even when it is "off". It might help to add another lamp, to increase the total load.

Just now, jakub.jezek said:

 

@Jibran, too much current i guess. Did you tried to use Bypass?

 

Generally speaking:

 

When they blink while the dimmer is "off" it is not over-current, it is leakage current. Use bypass or different lamp.

 

When the 2-wire aka "without neutral" calibration fails, the load is usually too low (suggested minimum load 25 W but might work with only 12 W, but lower than that is tricky).

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2 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

You need a bypass. There are many LED designs out there, some designs have a supply that starts because a tiny amount of current passes through the dimmer, even when it is "off". It might help to add another lamp, to increase the total load.

 

Generally speaking:

 

When they blink while the dimmer is "off" it is not over-current, it is leakage current. Use bypass or different lamp.

 

When the 2-wire aka "without neutral" calibration fails, the load is usually too low (suggested minimum load 25 W but might work with only 12 W, but lower than that is tricky).

Thank you for info @petergebruers. I'm not electrician (know basics only) and this was first what came to my mind.

 

I met this few days ago with my customer. He added there something like that:

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3 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

Thank you for info @petergebruers. I'm not electrician (know basics only) and this was first what came to my mind.

 

I met this few days ago with my customer. He added there something like that:

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You almost seem to apologize and you really do not have to do that. You are always contributing and I appreciate that. And "Dimmer 2" happens to be one of the modules that I know very well if I may say so.

 

That small "pilot lamp" might work with some lamps. But I expect the indicator to glow, so your customer hid it in the ceiling?. I have one on my bench and I tested it :-) It is five to ten times cheaper than a bypass so you might want to try it anyway. A bypass is a clever device, many users have attempted to use resistors or capacitors but here is no real substitute... ;-)

 

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@petergebruers, Yes, customer hid it in ceiling. Also he used 12V "pilot lamp" version, because there was same problem with LED strips. But maybe it was bulb from christmass tree instead of "pilot lamp" if i think about it. I'm remembering face2face conversation much :D. I just know i send him info about "pilot lamp" (that is in mail).

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  • I didnt connect bypass but increased the load upto 80w.  There is no change in response. Now i will try bypass on it . 

     

    Thankyou 

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     and 

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    for the information. Appreciated a lot. 

     

     

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    Hi i am new to Fibaro i got my HC2, and need to proceed with installation 

    I have 3 zones on my living room , all of them contains LED light strip and LED spot light that is non dimmable with transformer (Driver) all of them are power saving LED.

     

    I bought the double switch 2 and connected it to test it, it works but it seems sometime the relay stuck i checked the forum and it seems there is inrush current.

    Do you think if i bought dimmers instead of that it will works correctly without wending the relay ?

     

    Also what is the constrain that i should take care (if i know each zone watt usage) ?
    i read but please correct me if am wrong :
      1- to control zone i have to know each circuit how much watt in total say if it between 50 to 250 i can use dimmer only without bypass 2

      2- if the total is below the 50 Watt say 10 Watt i have to install dimmer bypass 2.

     

    if that right do i have one dimmer bypass only installed after the dimmer ? or i need multiple ?

     

    @Jibran @petergebruers @jakub.jezek would appreciate your experience

     

    Thanks hope i get clear answer because i thought firstly dual switch will handle everything , i am not electrician. 

     

     

     

    Edited by mohammad abu hantash
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    Hi @mohammad abu hantash,

     

    If you using LED, then use Dimmer 2 and Bypass regardless load wattage. Then calibrate dimmer and it will probably detect load as non-dimmable.

     

    From experience of my customers one bypass in parallel with all lights should be enough.

     

    Regards,

    Jakub

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    @jakub.jezek how can i detect that ? do you have any experience ? currently its connected to regular switch and it only do on and off . not a big deal i can live with it without dimming .

    so the dimmer will not get welding issue if i used it as dual switch because dual switch relay was sometimes stuck .

     

    again thanks alot for sharing your opinion

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  • Inquirer
  • Hello Mohammad abu hantash,

     

    Sorry for the late reply , as i was busy.

     

    In my experience , double relay never works with the led loads . They jam and stuck due to high inrush currents. 

     

    Yes, you are right . In each zone you have to calculate the load ( in watts ) . Dimmer 2 has limitations. it supports 250w resistive and 160w for leds ( depends upon the power factor your led and driver has ). 

     

    You can try dimmer 2 with bypass 2 on a non dimmable led . My experience here is not so good with the dimmer 2 with non dimmable. At start they will run fine but after sometime they start to flash even when the switch is off. So leakage current is still there even after connecting the bypass 2 . 

     

    I am using only single switch module with limited led lights to control them. They run fine . but for bigger led loads like above 100w, I use dpdt relay between the circuit ( zone ) and module . So i have no problem untill then . 

     

    If you have led strip lights, i suggest you to calculate the power first  ( power per meter ) . Then you can use fibaro rgbw module or Single switch. 

     

    If you have any questions , feel free to ask.. 

     

    Thankyou

    JIbran

     

     

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    @Jibran Thanks a lot for the description , i have questions :

    1- for now i am too confused since the double switch 2 is the same of the single switch module but with ability to work on two switches is that right?  how could the single switch works better than the double ? i mean do they have any difference on the loads

    2- i want to do automation for almost for 20 switches that controls LED lights so i need to put good plan for that do you see that the best solution is to use single switch for all home? 

    3- and does the wall box fit for 2 modules from single switch fibaro module ??

    4- i also can use the dpdt relay for low and high loads ? do you have link to by the dpdt ?

    5- yes i have led strips but they are long cant i use the single switch with them since they are warm white color only no need to user RGBA module ?
     

     

    thanks for your suggestions

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  • 1. Yes you are right. DOUBLE switch has the ability to work with 2 switches means you can control 2 different circuits. But it only requires RESISTIVE LOADS. It will work on resistive loads only. Not inductive or capactive loads.

    As LED is not a resistive load, for start ( milliseconds) led takes in high amount of current ( INRUSH CURRENT ) . It can be several amperes like 6 to 12 amps. And when this happens , DOUBLE relay starts giving trouble because of inrush current. It jams or melt the contacts of the relay .

    SINGLE SWITCH does not do that . But the load of leds may damage it after sometime because of high inrush currents. 

     

    2. So better to use DPDT relay between the load and the module. Never use DOUBLE SWITCH on leds. it will never work . 

    3. Basically every conventional switch has a junction box in which it can fit in. But if its material is plastic, you can make room for the second module . i have done these a lot of times.

     

    4. you have to make room for one module atleast 2.5 to 3 inch deeper . 

    5. You can use dpdt relay for low loads. There should be available for high loads also . but you have to check the specification of the DPDT relay . you can find it on amazon or aliexpress

    6. Yes if the led strips are of same colour ,, then no need to use RGB module. Just use single relay but keep in mind about the power consumption. I have never used Led strip of more than 100w on one module. Because i dont use DPDT relay between them.

     

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