TL lighting + Fibaro Relay Switch

[Sjekke 87]

Any constraints to use a Relay Switch with TL lighting?

[AutoFrank 372]

@Sjekke

 

Could you elaborate what is TL lighting ? 

[petergebruers 1,268]

1 hour ago, AutoFrank said:

@Sjekke

 

Could you elaborate what is TL lighting ? 

 

We call them like that in Belgium/France/The Netherlands. You know them as "fluorescent lamps" (CFL if they are compact).

 

I can't say I've ever read a topic that mentioned issues with fluorescent lamps. Are you worried about something specific or are you just being cautious?

[Sjekke 87]

I talked to an Fibaro installer of Robbshop (Fibaro reseller in NL) and he told me that TL (fluorescent lamps (thx Peter)) and the Fibaro Relay Switch is not a perfect match. That’s why I posted this question here.

[petergebruers 1,268]

10 minutes ago, Sjekke said:

I talked to an Fibaro installer of Robbshop (Fibaro reseller in NL) and he told me that TL (fluorescent lamps (thx Peter)) and the Fibaro Relay Switch is not a perfect match. That’s why I posted this question here.

 

Inductive and capacitive loads are "tougher" on the relays, than incandescent lamps. I have three 36 W with ferro ballast, one 28 W electronic ballast, two 36 W double ferro ballast...  In operation since 2012. Inductive loads can cause deterioration of the contacts, but that depends on power rating. I would not use them to turn on a pump of > 300 W, nor a set of 5 x 80 or 10 x 40 W fluorescent bulbs. In that case, I would certainly add a relay... Some power supplies of LED lamps can even cause trouble at only 20 W, it is hard to predict.

 

What do they recommend instead?

What kind of load do you want to switch?

Edited August 16, 2017 by petergebruers

[jimicr 90]

If you must use the fluorescent Tube Lights, may get a dimmable 0-10v ballast and  use an RGBW to control it?

Or if I am not mistaken, qubino has device for the TL's?

 

Jim

[TRicky 84]

I have in my garage one section with 8 x 36 W Fluorescent lamps (with HF power supplies) and one section with 12 x 36 W Fluorescent lamps (with HF power supplies).

Both of these sections resulted in 'sticky' relay contacts although the Philips HF power supplies have a Cos Phi factor (power factor) of 0.89 each.

Therefor I added for both circuits a power relay that can resist these loads.

 

[petergebruers 1,268]

6 hours ago, TRicky said:

I have in my garage one section with 8 x 36 W Fluorescent lamps (with HF power supplies) and one section with 12 x 36 W Fluorescent lamps (with HF power supplies).

Both of these sections resulted in 'sticky' relay contacts although the Philips HF power supplies have a Cos Phi factor (power factor) of 0.89 each.

Therefor I added for both circuits a power relay that can resist these loads.

 

 

It is not the fluorescent lamp, it is the inrush current of the electronic ballast that makes the relay stick. I fully recommend the solution you proposed: an extra relay. The only disadvantages are space, possible noise (hum) from the relay and you do not get power metering. Or if it is a FGS-2x1 or FGS-2x2, try a FGS-2x3 (see below for explanation).

 

If you want some background, I want to promote a topic I started regarding sticking aka welding of relay contacts, explaining why it happens even with good power factor and some possible solutions...

 

Although it is from December 2013 it is still relevant, and people still contact me occasionally regarding the proposed solutions. Since the release of the FGD-2x3 incidents seem to have dropped, probably because the relay in the newer modules is better for non-resistive loads.

 

Please login or register to see this link.

 

 

10 hours ago, jimicr said:

If you must use the fluorescent Tube Lights, may get a dimmable 0-10v ballast and  use an RGBW to control it?

Or if I am not mistaken, qubino has device for the TL's?

 

Jim

 

Regarding RGBW: the output is not 0-10 V but "PWM". The input of the RGBW, on the other hand, is analog 0-10 V. I am not sure (all) electronic ballasts work with PWM. But I am sure NOT all devices with 0-10 V input work with the RGBW! You can buy electronic circuit boards that convert the PWM output of the RGBW to 0-10 V (essentially a low pass filer and a buffer). I can find a reference if you need one.

 

I do not know if Qubino is better, but I doubt it, if the module has the same size as Fibaro's. In this case, the size of the relay really matters. It is the pulling force of the spring, that opens the contacts, that has to work against the welding of de contacts due to high inrush current. So the single relay versions of Qubino and Fibaro are better at handling high loads, than the double relay versions!

 

A possible solution to turn on/off difficult loads would be a solid state relay (with zero cross triggering for capacitive loads) based on old-school TRIAC technology. Unfortunately, they might cause the load to glow or flicker when the relay is off because most of them have a small leakage current in the off state.

 

An FGD-212 sometimes is an option, but with a twist: this is an electronic switch and it will detect and protect itself from inrush current. I bet if you connect an FGD-212 to a some 36 W electronic ballasts, the light will not turn on and the dimmer will report "over-current" although the the Watts of the load may be in spec.. Not all ballasts are equal! This is not a solution of course, but this test will confirm if your load indeed has high inrush current. You can try it on a cheapskate 20 W or 50 W LED floodlight, or on some no-brand LED power supplies... If the dimmer will not drive the load, then the load might make your relays stick!

 

Edit: I forgot to metion that cheapskate LED floodlights are coming to the market that do not exhibit high inrush current. They are called "driverless" because they integrate a driver on the same board as the LED. They do not have the typical "driver brick" you will find in older designs.

Edited August 17, 2017 by petergebruers
Add remark about driverless LED

[jsum 0]

Hi Sjekke,

 

You can also look into remodeling your armature to use LED lights and reap the benefits of that. 

 

[jimicr 90]

@petergebruers, It just came to mind without research.

 

The qubino i had in mind is this one: 

Please login or register to see this link.

 

Jim

[petergebruers 1,268]

@jimicr if my previous post sounded as if I dismissed what you said, it was unintentional, I apologize... 

 

I had a quick look at that Qubino 0-10 V dimmer and it looks like a better match (to electronic drivers with such an input) then the Fibaro RGBW.

[jimicr 90]

5 hours ago, petergebruers said:

@jimicr if my previous post sounded as if I dismissed what you said, it was unintentional, I apologize... 

 

I had a quick look at that Qubino 0-10 V dimmer and it looks like a better match (to electronic drivers with such an input) then the Fibaro RGBW.

No problem @petergebruers, you didn't sound dismissing to me  I am quite busy at the moment with the "summergames" for the kids here, we just sold our house and finalizing on the mortgage for the new house ect, ect.

Every time I try to take a break here at the forum my wife has a job for me... 

 

That's why I said I didn't research, but I remembered reading somewhere about this and hoped it would be useful for someone to read a bit more about by pointing them in a direction. 

[Sjekke 87]

@petergebruers

I only wanted to switch a set of two 18w Fluorescent lamps in my garage. But I don't use the garage a lot, so changing it all just to activate the light once and a while (when it's dark) ... it's not worth it  ... even not changing to LED. (my garage is next to my house and my car sleeps outdoors )

 

Nevertheless, thank you all for your replies.

 

 

 

[petergebruers 1,268]

13 hours ago, Sjekke said:

@petergebruers

I only wanted to switch a set of two 18w Fluorescent lamps in my garage. But I don't use the garage a lot, so changing it all just to activate the light once and a while (when it's dark) ... it's not worth it  ... even not changing to LED. (my garage is next to my house and my car sleeps outdoors )

 

Nevertheless, thank you all for your replies.

 

 

 

 

I understand. I have an old kitchen extractor hood. My family members tend to forget to turn it off. Modifying the switch, motor, light is both an electrical and mechanical challenge. And why would I do that... to make me even more lazy?

 

Anyway, an FGS-213 has pretty big relay, so even if that 2x18 W light has an electronic ballast, it almost certainly will work (will not stick).