Geek stuff: Z-Wave specifications available.

[petergebruers 1,268]

Have I been living under a rock?

 

I thought Z-Wave was build on secrets and NDAs?

 

Last week I found out, lots of documents have been posted here:

 

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Very technical stuff. Like all command classes and the bits they use.

 

All documents seem to have a date around mid 2016.

 

If you like reading this stuff, I can tell you your at least as "geeky" as me...

 

You would almost start thinking, Sigma Designs wants people to develop stuff for Z-Wave and use it in conjunction with IoT stuff.

[tinman 1,070]

no, NDA is only for hard stuff . The public specs are fyi exact the same as under NDA (which is not always the case), sure, deep description, pgm examples, whatever is not public (pdf's public 18:270 under nda), but it is already step in right direction (it will be more and more in the future). Sure, this is not enough to develop own product (or even to play with "own" product), SDK is not all, one need currently Keil compiler. For programming there are solutions without dev kit, my first programmer was HC2, then i found other solution and finally the dev kit. The public stuff is however important to understand all the things behind, and for OZ definitely something they looked for (sometimes one think to know what behind, but in the reality it is completely different). From the public stuff is especially the Z/IP and Zware for raspi very cool. 

Edited August 30, 2017 by tinman

[petergebruers 1,268]

28 minutes ago, tinman said:

no, NDA is only for hard stuff . The public specs are fyi exact the same as under NDA (which is not always the case), sure, deep description, pgm examples, whatever is not public (pdf's public 18:270 under nda), but it is already step in right direction. What definitely nice is the Z/IP and Zware for raspi.

 

Thanks @tinman, I had a feeling you would comment on this topic

 

They want to catch up with open source IoT? Like ESP8266 or ESP32 SoC? They better hurry up. According to wikipedia, in August 2014 the ESP-01 module (based on ESP8266 and commonly referred to as "the ESP8266" but that is a bit wrong), with open source free tools, based on internet standards, free, RTOS free realtime operating system, lua i(NodeMCU),  ... Of course documentation is "in flux" or contradictory, so I do not know whether I prefer crappy docs to unavailable docs (due to NDA). Aren't those modules used in the Sonoff products, cheap relays, no mesh, but functional and less than 10 EUR? I wish I had insight in the market, more details on sales, popularity and stuff, so I could tell some facts instead of some very personal opinion. I would like to believe Z-Wave stays a relevant technology. I have toyed too much with WiFi, Bluetooth and XML parsers. It is hard, and I am not impressed (where is the mesh? How about compatibility? It is al "coming" and "in state of flux"), but low price of ESP products is tempting.

 

 

As an end-user, I can benefit from the opening up of Z-Wave docs in several ways:

• I can have better understanding of the way it works.
• I can do better troubleshooting of my own network.
• I can help other people, for fun and pleasure.
• I can expect lots of developers to get attracted to the technology, so get better devices and controller software.
• add your own reason here

 

I can download a raspi 3 image containing a Z/IP and I have a Aeotec Z-Wave Plus stick, but is that the right dongle? And what is the next step? I fail to grasp what I could achieve with it. I probably did not read enough...  Is this stuff meant to be used by 3rd parties that want to integrate Z-Wave support without adding a Z-Wave chip or dongle to their controller hardware?

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by petergebruers
Fix lots of typo's

[tinman 1,070]

On ‎30‎.‎08‎.‎2017 at 2:52 PM, petergebruers said:

Thanks @tinman, I had a feeling you would comment on this topic

 

 sure, such topics always, even on holiday

 

Quote

 

They want to catch up with open source IoT?

 

 

open source is not evil^^ , but to your question - long story short said YES.

As Hans Kröner from Sigma Designs said, "every z-wave developer is using / is somehow dependent on open source tools all the time, so why not give something back?"
 

Quote

Like ESP8266 or ESP32 SoC? They better hurry up. According to wikipedia, in August 2014 the ESP-01 module (based on ESP8266 and commonly referred to as "the ESP8266" but that is a bit wrong), with open source free tools, based on internet standards, free, RTOS free realtime operating system, lua i(NodeMCU),  ... Of course documentation is "in flux" or contradictory, so I do not know whether I prefer crappy docs to unavailable docs (due to NDA). Aren't those modules used in the Sonoff products, cheap relays, no mesh, but functional and less than 10 EUR?

 

 

i was there from the begin of ESP series, under NDA of course, and switched to z-wave as i got the chance. It is still (from my point of view) interesting platform, but completely "wild" (i think i don't have to tell you about the quality of the documentation, and on the beginning was even worse), with no long term coverage. For cheap - short life product, sure, why not. But such products are not really smart home, but simple remote controlled devices, z-wave - together with powerful gateway like e.g. HC2 - is making "dumb" devices to real smart home.

 

Quote

I would like to believe Z-Wave stays a relevant technology. 

 

z-wave is growing much faster than ever expected, and if you know G. Soros

 

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then you can see that there is strong investor, who definitely can make things happen (technology is not driven by engineers, but by investors).
Fibaro btw. have very strong investor as well, Mr. Kulczyk have for sure not 25bln EUR (10⁹) like Soros, but "only" 4bln, however he is jung (36!) and loves technology.

 

 

Quote

I can download a raspi 3 image containing a Z/IP and I have a Aeotec Z-Wave Plus stick, but is that the right dongle? And what is the next step? I fail to grasp what I could achieve with it. I probably did not read enough...  Is this stuff meant to be used by 3rd parties that want to integrate Z-Wave support without adding a Z-Wave chip or dongle to their controller hardware?

 

 

You need usb dongle with "bridge" firmware on it, which is not on the Aeotec Stick, so even if you would get the right firmware from someone who have such firmware, it will still not work due to extras on the aeotec pcb (z-wave.me sticks are much better, and of course the sigma designs sticks). In principle you can take any device based on SD3503 or ZM5304 (even on ZM5101 as it does have USB), with proper firmware it will act as bridge controller.
 

The original stick with bridge firmware costs 25EUR something, when buying from dk one have to "sign NDA" (and on bottom of the page is something like "you have to pay 3000usd or so", but this is not really NDA for that stick, they have simply one pdf for all Sigma Designs products, so just don't care about).

 

There are already other projects based on Z/IP, like

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It got right now certified for US frequency, so one need to "change" it or wait for EU version. For 100EUr delivered, loaded with all the sensors and other nice things (Spartan 6 and lot of mics to get nice Echo clone) definitely nice board. Probably the best platform to merge z-wave world with all the other technologies out there, the only disadvantage is java^^ (yes, i don't like it at all if script/language starts with j).

Edited September 10, 2017 by tinman

[petergebruers 1,268]

@tinman "amen to that" and thanks for the clarification.

 

3 minutes ago, tinman said:

But such products are not really smart home, but simple remote controlled devices, z-wave - together with powerful gateway like e.g. HC2 - is making "dumb" devices to real smart home.

 

That is how I experienced it. Glad I'm not alone. This doesn't mean the non-Z-wave devices aren't great fun and aren't capable, it's just not easy to turn them in to a "smart home" solution (yet). Sometimes I think the old 433 CoCo and X10 devices have a pretty large base in the USA and are still pretty much alive, judging from the number of posts on the HomeSeer forum. I think it never took off in Belgium. Old technology, but refuses to die...

 

9 minutes ago, tinman said:

You need usb dongle with "bridge" firmware on it, which is not on the Aeotec Stick

 

I see. I wonder if you could turn a Z-Uno into such a controller. Because, as far as I can tell, it is nothing but a ZM5101 and a 3.3 V regulator. Bit expensive though. Oh boy, Z-Wave.me is going to hate me for saying that.

 

13 minutes ago, tinman said:

(...) and on bottom of the page is something like "you have to pay 3000usd or so" (...)

 

LOL

 

I'll definitely keep an eye on this "Matrix Creator" board!

 

[tinman 1,070]

do you have Z-UNO with ZM5101? my i using Mitsumi WML C85, which indeed is like ZM5101, but with some additions. Z-UNO is much more, the firmware makes it special.

[petergebruers 1,268]

On 30-8-2017 at 9:26 PM, tinman said:

do you have Z-UNO with ZM5101? my i using Mitsumi WML C85, which indeed is like ZM5101, but with some additions. Z-UNO is much more, the firmware makes it special.

 

Definitely a ZM5101A. I checked with a magnifying glass. Maybe I have an older board? BTW the Git repository branch is uCXX_Cores, a reference to the C85? I upgraded my Z-Uno board to the 2.1.0 firmware release, with one small issue: of course I forgot they set back the frequency to RU... Doh. Anyway, got it running and I hope I can test the new WS2811 and WS2812 library, and also the FLiRS mode next week. Not only because of the control of a battery operated device but also because I heard rumours the beaming technology causes issues in some networks (issues with firmware pre-2013? Do not know yet...).

 

For those non-geek users that are still here. FLiRS is especially important on battery operated door locks. In plan to use it on small LED projects. Here is a document explaining the technology:

 

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[tinman 1,070]

On ‎02‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 8:49 PM, petergebruers said:

 

Definitely a ZM5101A. I checked with a magnifying glass. Maybe I have an older board?

no idea, will ask Serguey tomorrow

EDIT: did it, latest model is using ZM5101A, so that's fine.

 

Quote

 of course I forgot they set back the frequency to RU...

haha, always the same thing

 

Quote

I heard rumours the beaming technology causes issues in some networks (issues with firmware pre-2013? Do not know yet...).

that probably rumors because of NDA, hehe, but indeed pre 2014 lot of issues  with beaming.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by tinman

[chaicka 195]

Here but you guys are too deep into the tech for me to grasp... But definitely something that interest me. Perhaps I am too much a noob. I think in the near 3-5 years future, it is a competition between 3 core platforms - Z-wave, Zigbee (now that it has wireless) and HomeKit. BLE with Mesh (ratification in July) will likely leap HomeKit further forward still still 2-3 years behind from true automation. My bet is on Z-Wave and HomeKit co-exists/bridging. Zigbee is a mess and looking at those manufacturers (e.g. Philips) making crap software for their zigbee products isn't giving me any confidence of sustainability. They are too used to the business model of short ROI and keep throwing new products for sake of generating revenue.

 

Sorry to interrupt the discussion. Mind blowing to see there are still people who dives so deep in and hangs around forums (perhaps rare gems in this forum). Continue please.

[TRicky 84]

On 4-9-2017 at 6:04 PM, chaicka said:

Here but you guys are too deep into the tech for me to grasp... But definitely something that interest me. Perhaps I am too much a noob. I think in the near 3-5 years future, it is a competition between 3 core platforms - Z-wave, Zigbee (now that it has wireless) and HomeKit. BLE with Mesh (ratification in July) will likely leap HomeKit further forward still still 2-3 years behind from true automation. My bet is on Z-Wave and HomeKit co-exists/bridging. Zigbee is a mess and looking at those manufacturers (e.g. Philips) making crap software for their zigbee products isn't giving me any confidence of sustainability. They are too used to the business model of short ROI and keep throwing new products for sake of generating revenue.

 

Sorry to interrupt the discussion. Mind blowing to see there are still people who dives so deep in and hangs around forums (perhaps rare gems in this forum). Continue please.

Same over here! Great to read it all but it's expanding my (current) knowledge of Z-Wave. But by reading this I'll get better informed, thanks!

 

[robmac 173]

Hi @tinman, @petergebruers

 

It now looks like the z-wave gateways can be nicely separated from the software. That is something I fancy having a hack at.

 

Have either of you looked at the Z/ip or middle-ware binaries that sigma offer for Raspbery PI.

 

regards,

 

Robert

 

 

 

[petergebruers 1,268]

The Z/IP was briefly touched in this topic by @tinman and me a few posts back.

 

I do not own a Raspberry Pi3 (only a Pi 2) and I do not own the correct dongle, you need  "a stick with bridge firmware" or one that can be flashed with the "bridge firmware".

 

I noticed you can buy two official kits related to the building of controller software, based on Z/IP:

 

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"The Z-Wave for CE SDK contains all the software building blocks needed to design a Smart Home solution. It shields the developer from the complexity of the Z-Wave protocol, and represents all the devices in the Z-Wave Network as software objects that the developer can easily manipulate."

 

And number 2:

 

"The Z-Ware for Portal SDK contains an evaluation server running on Ubuntu Linux, which combines Z-Ware and Z-Ware Apps with standard technology, such as OpenLDAP and Apache Server, to form a starting point for portal solution developers.

The Z-Ware Portal is designed to serve a Z/IP Gateway, such as the ZIPR or the Z/IP Gateway from the Z-Wave for CE SDK. All the components of the server are offered as source code, with a build environment for Ubuntu Linux."

 

Sorry, no list price. 

 

If I correctly understand Mr tinman's explanation, you do not need to buy an official kit. The Z/IP image is free and if you buy an official Sigma "UZB USB Stick Bridge Controller" you should be able to get the gateway firmware for about € 25.

Edited September 6, 2017 by petergebruers

[robmac 173]

Thanks. Will go and investigate.

 

 When I said I did not want to build my own from open source it looks like it just got a lot easier. At that level of abstraction should be able to build pretty easy.

 

 

Job done

 

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That was easy. All marked as compatible.

 

Bit of reading and see how it flies.

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by robmac

[petergebruers 1,268]

On 2-9-2017 at 8:49 PM, petergebruers said:

I upgraded my Z-Uno board to the 2.1.0 firmware release, with one small issue: of course I forgot they set back the frequency to RU... Doh. Anyway, got it running and I hope I can test the new WS2811 and WS2812 library, and also the FLiRS mode next week. Not only because of the control of a battery operated device but also because I heard rumours the beaming technology causes issues in some networks (issues with firmware pre-2013? Do not know yet...).

 

I've implemented a FLiRS but Z-Uno firmware 2.1.0 is not good enough yet to design a final product. But it is promising! Current consumption can very low and the latency is acceptable (FLiRS is set to 1 second interval and cannot be set to 0.25 s.). At least two important issues. First, sending the device to sleep should be easy, but it is not. If you follow the design paradigm (loop -> send to sleep), the SoC enters sleep too soon and the device then misses packets and the controller will not get correct status updates. Workaround is to delay sleeping, count loop() rounds or a combination of the two. The second issue is more of a showstopper. When the Z-Uno wakes up (when you click a button or Z-Wave receives a command, so each time you control or poll the device!) all I/O pins are forced to input mode. After 80 ms the runtime completes and you can regain control in the setup() part of the code, but I think this needs a better fix. I think I/O configuration and state should be preserved when woken from deep sleep. Next week I'll test this on my HC, to find out if "beaming" technology kills my network, as some seem to suggest... Another possible showstopper is that FLiRS seems to be limited to command class "Siren" and "Valve" valve only so only supporting basic on/off.

 

If you want to follow the Z-Uno FLiRS discussion, it is here:

 

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[tinman 1,070]

On ‎06‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 8:08 AM, petergebruers said:

The Z/IP was briefly touched in this topic by @tinman and me a few posts back.

I noticed you can buy two official kits related to the building of controller software, based on Z/IP:

 

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if one wish the develop gateway, controller sdk is a must. I do own only embedded sdk, so no access to controller or Z/IP sources, so i tried only the public raspi image as well (to compare with zirp hardware contained in dev kit).

 

On ‎06‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 8:08 AM, petergebruers said:

If I correctly understand Mr tinman's explanation, you do not need to buy an official kit. The Z/IP image is free and if you buy an official Sigma "UZB USB Stick Bridge Controller" you should be able to get the gateway firmware for about € 25.

 

right

 

On ‎06‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 8:49 PM, robmac said:

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this one contains actually static controller firmware, not bridge firmware. To get the bridge firmware (programmed into the stick), you need pc programmer software and the firmware, both included in embedded or controller sdk from sigma designs. For sure i can program it for you, when you pay shipping. 

[Lambik 194]

Interresting topic, guys.

 

The Matrix board looks, visually,  a lot like the Athom hardware is using for the Homey. Is there a comparison?

 

Can Red-Node be usable for testing (for example the 

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) or is more low-level access needed? 

[tinman 1,070]

1 hour ago, Lambik said:

The Matrix board looks, visually,  a lot like the Athom hardware is using for the Homey. Is there a comparison?

 

as they not yet ready with Spartan core nor ARM firmware for z-wave implementation, one can only use provided z-wave chip (it runs with bridge firmware), connected via FPGA (simply i/o necessary, just uart zwave to uart raspi port) to raspi port and raspi (loaded with public Z/IP or ZWare image). 

 

Quote

Can Red-Node be usable for testing (for example the 

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) or is more low-level access needed? 

 

OZ is generally not complete (yet), therefore red-node oz additions are far from perfect, but as i said above, you can use the public Z/IP or ZWare implementation.
Later, when Matrix board OS get full support for Z-Wave, you will be able to use it directly (well, you still will need raspi as the image with the Matrix OS is running on raspi).

 

 

But still, it is certified for different frequency, so some hacks necessary to get it working in EU (until they got EU version certified, which is afaik planed)

Edited September 10, 2017 by tinman

[Lambik 194]

@tinman Clear, thanks!

[tinman 1,070]

On ‎10‎.‎09‎.‎2017 at 3:39 PM, tinman said:

But still, it is certified for different frequency, so some hacks necessary to get it working in EU (until they got EU version certified, which is afaik planed)

 

well, Matrix got certified for EU region and on stock at Farnell 

[AutoFrank 372]

Interesting product 

 

 

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