Inclusion solutions? or not a good idea?

[okidoki 15]

Hi all,

 

I've been reading a lot about zwave, the networks and communication, nodes etc and a lot of tips and tricks, repair guides etc etc on this forum. Great stuff. But i still have some questions regarding the including/excluding proces with 'difficult' devices (devices that take a lot of attemps to include). I have a few of those difficult devices. I see some different type of advice on the forum about how to solve  this but they al sound a bit strange to me regarding the zwave concept:

 

actual situation:

My HC3 is in the living room.

My device is on the first floor. including does not work (a lot! of attemps). A solution is suggested to do one of these :

1) bring the HC closer to the device or

2) bring the device closer to the HC

 

ad 1  to me it sounds not like a good idea because i read the zwave is a mesh network which is build up based on the location of the HC. So moving the HC closer doesn't sounds logical to me as is my affect the whole network?

ad2: bring the device closer, incluse it and than bring it back to the first floor doen't sound logical to me either, because the HC assumes the devise is close at inclusion, but later on it is at another position in the house. Unless this could be fixed by forcing a soft reconfigere of the device? 

 

What is the best solution for this problem? or are they both not smart?

 

 

 

[Flash 103]

Hi @okidoki

 

In the inclusion tab you can check the option "NWI- Network-Wide inclusion," See manual

If this doesn't work you can use both options, you mentioned.

But after inclusion you have to goto "Reconfigure mesh network (You can choose if you want to configure entire Z-Wave network or single devices),"  See manual.

Here you can force the device to find a new route to the HC.

[petergebruers 1,265]

1 hour ago, okidoki said:

1) bring the HC closer to the device or

That is actually a good idea, but it is not practical unless you have a long ethernet cable and don't mind rebooting twice...

 

1 hour ago, okidoki said:

ad 1  to me it sounds not like a good idea because i read the zwave is a mesh network which is build up based on the location of the HC. So moving the HC closer doesn't sounds logical to me as is my affect the whole network?

The mesh is already there, and you are adding a device to it. This new device will scan its neighbors.

 

So actually it is better to have the device in its final position and move the HC2

 

1 hour ago, okidoki said:

ad2: bring the device closer, incluse it and than bring it back to the first floor doen't sound logical to me either, because the HC assumes the devise is close at inclusion, but later on it is at another position in the house.

 

If you bring it closer, this new device might see neighbors that are no longer neigbors after putting back your newly included device. The controller does not have this problem because it has a complete routing table. A device will select a route anyway, so if "direct" is not possible the device and controller will notice. You want as many direct connections as possible because they are faster than routed connections.

 

NWI allows a device to be included even when there is no direct connection possible (ie it is too far away to get a signal through without repeaters).  Clearly, the device has to support NWI, but that is not enough... The repeaters have to relay the NWI inclusion request, older devices don't do that. The reason has to do with how repeaters handle messages from "foreign home IDs", technically speaking a device that was never included (or factory reset) uses a random Home ID and pre-NWI repeaters do not want to relay such messages. In that case, the device can only be included "in direct range".
 
So try it, but if it does not work after 2-3 attempts then understand this might be "normal" in your specific situation.
 
To diagnose this kind of NWI inclusion issues, you will need a "Zniffer".
 
If you move devices, I recommend doing a mesh update on this device and e few neighbours. Though that is not strictly necessary if your devices supports "explorer frames" which your Z-Wave Plus does...
 
If you want to fully understand what I am saying, you'll have to study how Z-Wave routes packets.
 
I can recommend this excellent series of post by a former Fibaro user, @robmac, on the OpenHAB forum, we had many long and fruitful discussions and he decided to post the result...
 

Please login or register to see this link.

 

1 hour ago, Flash said:

In the inclusion tab you can check the option "NWI- Network-Wide inclusion

Yes, always try this and try to include the device in its final position

 

1 hour ago, Flash said:

But after inclusion you have to goto "Reconfigure mesh network (You can choose if you want to configure entire Z-Wave network or single devices)

You do not do that if NWI worked...

 

If you had to move the device closer, then indeed try mesh reconfigure.

[okidoki 15]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Hi @okidoki

 

 

But after inclusion you have to goto "Reconfigure mesh network (You can choose if you want to configure entire Z-Wave network or single devices),"  See manual.

 

Hi @Flash, thks for the reaction.

Is it wise to reconfigure the whole network? I have read reactions from some of the pro's here that this does not always garantee that it improve things  and that is more wise to update  a single device.

[Piotr Bojko 28]

Network is being reconfigured by master periodically, like every night. 

[okidoki 15]

Thks @petergebruers for the good explanation.I do understand your message. The hard part is to get it visualized without tools such as zniffer. 

 

Bringing the device closer is possible for me.

However: imagine that the device on the first floor is indeed to far away from the HC3, (its a concrete house), and i do get it inclused as long i move the HC close to the device. But if i move the device to the ground floor again and it stops the communication, ho do you solve that? (because i'm afraid that is actually happening with another device on the second floor) ?

There are devices in between, but these are battery feed devices and a read that these cannot act as a repeater. Should i get a fibaro switch and plug this into the wall somewhere in between?

 

i will start reading the link you provided, thanks!

[alex88 71]

You could always buy a z-wave network extender. 

 

With regards to "Re-configure Mesh Network" for the HC2 it may depend on the size of your system. Smaller and it may work fine vs very large where I'm not sure it's the best idea

 

HC3 may behave differently so you need to check with Fibaro or an experienced user.

[Flash 103]

5 hours ago, okidoki said:

Should i get a fibaro switch and plug this into the wall somewhere in between?

 

It's always good to have main powered devices to support you're mesh network.

As you say, battery powered devices can not function as a repeater.

So try to place some main powered devices in between you're second floor and the hc3.

[Flash 103]

8 hours ago, okidoki said:

Is it wise to reconfigure the whole network? I have read reactions from some of the pro's here that this does not always garantee that it improve things  and that is more wise to update  a single device.

 

Hi @okidoki.

Updating the whole network will create a lot of strain on the processor, and network, can take a long time to complete, so I would advice only single device update.

@Piotr Bojko

I'm not sure that updating every night is still active in the Homecenters due to problems in the past.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Flash

[Piotr Bojko 28]

I am old user of HC2 and not active one. I am on a OpenHab now. There, master reconfigures the mesh every night. After every night my network is somewhat more responsive now. But this is only my opinion. 

 

I would not argue against the reconfiguration of the mesh because of some heat on CPU or a crowdy network for a while. When CPU is 100% then it is utilizied fully  - when it is utilies in 30% then it is not working fully for the money it is bought for.

[okidoki 15]

Hi All, 

@Flash @petergebruers @Piotr Bojko @amilanov ,

 

Just to give some feedback on my system after implementing some of your valuable feedback. I tried to minimize network load by turning of some scens before i installed new devices.

First thing i did was installing some extra wall powered devices on the first floor to add some repeaters there.. Inclusion of the new devices worked at once and after a few minutes already i could give the dimmer on the 2nd floor a soft reconfigure. And its was back into the network! In the mean time i reduced all messages from the devices, no low bateries stuff etc. 

The other non function device on the ground floor i gave a factory reset after the power down and after 2 attempt it was re-included again. See if this device will stay stable as it was functioning ok for 2 weeks until last week.

At the moment i have a stable network with 17 devices on 3 floors. So far so good. Let the LUA coding begin...

Thank you all, you helped me understanding the behavior of the zwave network a lot better.

 

[petergebruers 1,265]

11 hours ago, okidoki said:

At the moment i have a stable network with 17 devices on 3 floors. So far so good. Let the LUA coding begin...

Thank you for reporting back! Have fun!