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Double switch won't work with a mechanical switch when installed far from it ?


tzimber
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Hi Everyone,

so I'm having this issue that is driving me CRAZY !

I'm building a new home, and i just bought HC3 and lots of switches.

 

I built my system in a way that the switches will be installed in power boxes, instead of inside the switch box, as I found it very crowded to fit in.

 

So,

I was installing one of the units today, I have one light, connected to 3 switches ( so I can turn this light from any of this switches)

when connected without the Fibaro switch, I can turn the light On and Off, from any of the switches.

 

when I connect the fibaro module, the switches doesn't seem to have any effect. if I turn the light On and Off from the up it works fine, but the switches dose noting.

 

so to figure out what's going on, I took the switch, and just built the same setup on the table, and everything was working fine.

 

So, what can cause this issue?

if without the fibaro switch, all of the mechanical switches turn the light on and off, why dose the switch fails to receive the on/off signal ?

also, if i take another mechanical switch, and connect it directly to the module, inside that main power box it dose work ! even though that this mechanical switch is connected to the same mechanical switch that is like 4 meters away inside the wall.

but the one inside the wall has no effect, and the one next to it dose work !

 

i have added a diagram of how I connected everything.

 

Thanks !

 

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55 minutes ago, tzimber said:

if its connected, why wont it get 230V thru it ?

Well, how are you supposed to connect it?

 

One side to S1, no doubt about that ... The other side to ... L? or N? @jakub.jezek didn't specify that.

 

If you pick "N" then it effectively depends on how your switches are set (you have, for the record, the toggle switches mentioned in post #1). The circuit can be open, and then a current from S1 will flow through the resistor to N. If the circuit is closed, then the resistor sits between L and N and will consume 0,5 Watt as long as the switches remain in that position. That is not terrible, but it is about the same amount of power consumed by the module itself. The situation would be different if you had 3 momentary (push button) switches, then the connection would be brief (but still does not change the requirement of the resistor to withstand power and voltage specified).

 

If you choose "L" on the other hand, you create an extra leakage path (bridging the the switches when they are open). But this still might work because the effects we see here are AC.

 

That's why I said, make sure the resistor is 0,5 W and fit for mains.

 

We haven't diagnosed and understood the problem yet. It's just an idea that this resistor will help. Well it helped Jakub, I don't doubt that, in *his* case, but I make no assumptions about the similarities of your circuits!

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Hehehe... I forgot to mention the third possible way to connect the resistor of 100 k, 250 V AC and 1/2 W rated... You can put it in series with the switches and S1. So one side of the resistor to S1 and the other side connects to the "common" contact of your first 2-way switch. Th S1 input in that case is low current, but the rating still stays the same because it is a 230 V AC circuit and you might make a mistake, it still has to be safe.

 

BTW When the Dimmer 2 came to the market, I tested all sorts of tricks to make longer cables work, not only resistors (eg capacitors, diodes). I did quite some tinkering myself. In a safe and controlled manner. But we're not talking about a Dimmer 2 here, you mentioned a relay. The inputs are probably different.

 

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6 hours ago, petergebruers said:

One side to S1, no doubt about that ... The other side to ... L? or N? @jakub.jezek didn't specify that.

I'll Quote myself.

On 6/7/2021 at 1:04 PM, jakub.jezek said:

Connect it terminals S1 and N

 

 

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14 minutes ago, jakub.jezek said:

I'll Quote myself.

You did, I am blind 🤣

EDIt: sorry!

Edited by petergebruers
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17 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

You did, I am blind 🤣

 

So do I 😂

7 hours ago, petergebruers said:

Well it helped Jakub, I don't doubt that, in *his* case, but I make no assumptions about the similarities of your circuits!

Those 100k resistor helped in 2 cases:

  1. where wire distance between switch and Fibaro module was higher than max. specifiend by Fibaro manual.
  2. There was something small accumulating on the switch wires. Probably from some other wires, where was heavier load (lights, blinds, ...).
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Thanks for clarifying that, in my Dimmer 2 case I also concluded, at least int 2 different effects (length, but also cross talk from nearby wire) influenced S1. The input structure of the switches and relays might differ though, but it is worth trying.

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  • On 6/10/2021 at 10:10 AM, jakub.jezek said:

    So do I 😂

    Those 100k resistor helped in 2 cases:

    1. where wire distance between switch and Fibaro module was higher than max. specifiend by Fibaro manual.
    2. There was something small accumulating on the switch wires. Probably from some other wires, where was heavier load (lights, blinds, ...).

     

    OK Everyone,

    First of all, I wanted to thank everyone for helping out.

    so, I got some good news and some less of good news.

     

    First, I tested with 100K, 200K and 500K resistors. (all of them are 1W)

    button line, the 100K did the trick. the switch is working 99% of the time.

    the 500K didn't have any effect and the 200K seemed like its a little bit better, but still not perfect.

     

    The bad news are, that the 100K resistor gets really hot. 

    I afraid that it will burn out, and i also wander how much electricity it takes.

     

    Maybe a higher Watt resistor will resolve the heating issue >?

     

    Thanks ! 

    @petergebruers

    @jakub.jezek

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    1 hour ago, tzimber said:

    First of all, I wanted to thank everyone for helping out.

    And I thank you, for reporting back. Good to know there is some progress. Seems like it is either the length of the wiring, or something is "leaking".

     

     

    1 hour ago, tzimber said:

    The bad news are, that the 100K resistor gets really hot. 

     

    As Ohm's law (which I applied in a previous post) predicted, that is 0,5 Watt if your toggle switches are in the X position - but if the switches are set differently (call it the Y position) that will be zero. Unfortunately, with the kind of wiring you have, there is no solution without rewiring.

     

    The 0,5 Watt is not excessive, of your resistor is rated at 1 Watt then you are OK.

     

    You'll notice that the Fibaro Module (by itself, so without load or resistor) also heats a little, it consumes roughly the same as your resistor. But because the heat is spread out over a larger surface than the resistor, it is less noticeable...

     

    1 hour ago, tzimber said:

    I afraid that it will burn out, and i also wander how much electricity it takes.

     

    I would say, statistically, sometimes the switches will be in a X -> 0,5 W and sometimes Y -> 0,0 W meaning, over a longer period of time (say weeks) it amounts to 0.25 W.

     

    The only solution is replacing your switches, use momentary switches instead. The momentary switches get wired in parallel and all default to the "open" position.

     

    But you'll have to find out if the necessary wiring is in place and if you can (still) buy switches that fit...

     

    You might still need the 100 k resistor but it shouldn't get hot when nobody presses the switches.

     

    Please login or register to see this image.

    /monthly_2021_06/987956290_Screenshot2021-06-18at20_01_46.png.8fb973fba475d6c8b5df7b23e59a6219.png" />

     

    I am a bit wary to recommend to go ahead with this, simply based on my advice... I mean we're al grown ups here, you have to know when it is time to seek advice from an electrician.

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  • On 6/18/2021 at 9:09 PM, petergebruers said:

    And I thank you, for reporting back. Good to know there is some progress. Seems like it is either the length of the wiring, or something is "leaking".

     

     

     

    As Ohm's law (which I applied in a previous post) predicted, that is 0,5 Watt if your toggle switches are in the X position - but if the switches are set differently (call it the Y position) that will be zero. Unfortunately, with the kind of wiring you have, there is no solution without rewiring.

     

    The 0,5 Watt is not excessive, of your resistor is rated at 1 Watt then you are OK.

     

    You'll notice that the Fibaro Module (by itself, so without load or resistor) also heats a little, it consumes roughly the same as your resistor. But because the heat is spread out over a larger surface than the resistor, it is less noticeable...

     

     

    I would say, statistically, sometimes the switches will be in a X -> 0,5 W and sometimes Y -> 0,0 W meaning, over a longer period of time (say weeks) it amounts to 0.25 W.

     

    The only solution is replacing your switches, use momentary switches instead. The momentary switches get wired in parallel and all default to the "open" position.

     

    But you'll have to find out if the necessary wiring is in place and if you can (still) buy switches that fit...

     

    You might still need the 100 k resistor but it shouldn't get hot when nobody presses the switches.

     

    Please login or register to see this link.

     

    I am a bit wary to recommend to go ahead with this, simply based on my advice... I mean we're al grown ups here, you have to know when it is time to seek advice from an electrician.

     

    Thanks,

    changing the wires is not an option at this stage..

    any way, thanks for the help ! much appreciated.

     

    If someone is having the same issue, or similar,  I think that the 100K resistors do the trick.

    I changed them from 1W to 2W and it seems good. it's getting just a little hot, seems like normal heating.

     

    So, 

    that's it ! it works !

     

    Thanks !

     

     

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    @tzimber, I'm glad it works for you.

     

    21 hours ago, tzimber said:

    changing the wires is not an option at this stage..

    Actually you do not need to change wires, just switches.

     

    In the wall, there are always at least two wires with staircase connection. So you only change  Toggle switches to Momentary switches. We recomend changing of switches in case of Dimmers, so end-customer has the best experience of dimming.

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