Fibaro Universal Dimmer withdrawn?

[fergalmccarthy 5]

Fibar Group would like to announce that Swedish National Electrical Safety Board asked for clarification according construction details of Fibaro Universal Dimmer and FIBARO Relay Switch. Bearing in mind the knowledge and authority of Swedish Electrical Safety Board, Fibaro began additional testing aforesaid devices in order to verify its compliance with the regulations of Swedish market. Until the end of the tests, all deliveries of Universal Dimmer and Relay Switch to the Swedish market have been suspended.

Our company would like to stress the fact that all Fibaro devices are safe for both the user and his property and this action is a matter of Swedish market requirements – does not concern other countries.

Given that Fibar Group have to run additional tests to verify, then surely you cannot stand over the statement that it is completely safe, if that was the case you would not need additional testing. Also it is not just a label issue as mentioned in another post, as this would not require testing. Given that Sweden has the same regulations as other EU countries, then surely its not just an issue with Sweden and until your testing is completed then these products should be suspended Europe wide.

[Guest lochnesz]

Fibar Group would like to announce that Swedish National Electrical Safety Board asked for clarification according construction details of Fibaro Universal Dimmer and FIBARO Relay Switch. Bearing in mind the knowledge and authority of Swedish Electrical Safety Board, Fibaro began additional testing aforesaid devices in order to verify its compliance with the regulations of Swedish market. Until the end of the tests, all deliveries of Universal Dimmer and Relay Switch to the Swedish market have been suspended.

Our company would like to stress the fact that all Fibaro devices are safe for both the user and his property and this action is a matter of Swedish market requirements – does not concern other countries.

Isn't the case that there are EN standards which all manufacturers must follow in order to have safe products for the consumers? Hence, if you don't follow these regulations, the product is considered to be unsafe. We must trust in the regulations agreed on in Europe. Aslo keep in mind that EN standards are not only for Sweden. How can you say that it is safe when the products fail tests becasue they doesn't comply with the saftey regulations, in this case required isolation distances (apart from the minor labeling issue)? Do you think that they measured the distance incorrectly? Do you have the required 3 mm distance? The regulations are there for a reason, no?

[UrSv 6]

Sure, just don't confuse Swedish Authorities with an entity that will follow anything the EU has agreed on. They usually "know best" and will create and interpret rules as they please. It has "failed" a test based on the Swedish rules which is NOT the same as EU rules.

I'm not the least worried and am quite convinced that this has no bearing for other countries and that there really is nothing wrong with the stuff.

[Guest lochnesz]

Sure, just don't confuse Swedish Authorities with an entity that will follow anything the EU has agreed on. They usually "know best" and will create and interpret rules as they please. It has "failed" a test based on the Swedish rules which is NOT the same as EU rules.

I'm not the least worried and am quite convinced that this has no bearing for other countries and that there really is nothing wrong with the stuff.

What do you mean? "Know best"?

EN 50428 is a standard which is not specific for Sweden. Either you follow the standard or not. If a distance should be 3 mm but is only 1.6 mm, what is there to interpret?

[goran 9]

"Know best"? This report is not based on opinions, it is based on numbers. Did you even read it? Do you think it's ok to use 10A approved components and then put a "16A" label on the device? Does this sound like an honest company you would trust to mess with your electrical system? Really?

[UrSv 6]

With "know best" I mean that they usually don't care abot any other opinion than their own. Not that they actually know best.

[Guest gembrain]

The Fibaro user manuals clearly state that their units comply with EN 60669-2-1. This is a basic standard for operational safety.

The Swedish test says the dimmer and 3Kw relay do not comply.

This isn't some trivial matter of opinions - Fibaro units either comply or they do not.

The standard is NOT just a Swedish one - it's international.

As I understand it either the Swedish have got it wrong or Fibaro products affected will end up having to be generally withdrawn from sale.

[goran 9]

Ursv, we got that. But as stated above, this report is based on hard facts and numbers, not opinions. What they "usually do" has absolutely nothing to do with this report.

[UrSv 6]

"Know best"? This report is not based on opinions, it is based on numbers. Did you even read it?

Of course I've read it and I have found nothing that worries me. Same goes for the earlier report.

Do you think it's ok to use 10A approved components and then put a "16A" label on the device?

Nah, that is perhaps not a great move. I'm sure that they will adjust this information to be more clear. The component that they mention however is the terminal which I'd say is not a critical component as such.

Does this sound like an honest company you would trust to mess with your electrical system? Really?

Sure does. Without any hesitation. I'd like to think I know a bit about electricity, electronics and the application pertaining to those disciplines. I might have a few issues with the marketing department way of doing things but as for the technical department I have great faith.

[ Added: 2014-10-31, 14:48 ]

The Swedish test says the dimmer and 3Kw relay do not comply.

The standard is NOT just a Swedish one - it's international.

You are assuming that the Swedish Authority is using the EU compliance guidelines for their decision. I don't.

[speedy 64]

The Fibaro user manuals clearly state that their units comply with EN 60669-2-1. This is a basic standard for operational safety.

.

Well the thing here is that it has to follow several standards.

Yours is one of them, and it failed that to. Insufficient markings on the product.

It failed EN 50428:2005 and 60669-2-1

Big difference in what is specified in these documents.

*edit

Thought I read that you said it complies.

Must get my dyslexia under control...

[fergalmccarthy 5]

As I understand it either the Swedish have got it wrong or Fibaro products affected will end up having to be generally withdrawn from sale.

I don't think the withdrawn from sale is going to be a problem. The problem will be refunding the resellers when they have thousands of these devices being sent back as faulty and dangerous. I think you may say goodbye to V4.

[ Added: 2014-11-02, 13:37 ]

@Fibaro, can you please advise when you expect this testing to be completed. Although currently limited to Sweden, i'm sure there are a lot of concerned user awaiting a response.

[GR 0]

After reading the sale ban from Sweden it seems we can sum it up to:

The dimmer is banned due to:

- Not enough distance between the live parts. There is 1.6mm where there should be at least 3mm. It is however not clear to me if this is internally or in the connector? Too thin plastic walls inside the connector?

- Missing voltage, power and AC/DC on the label.

The switch is banned due to:

- Same with the distance between live parts as with the dimmer, there is however 1.8mm on this one.

- Product documentation says it can handle 16A (and also label is marked with 3kW), but the connector used on the product is marked as max 10A.

- Missing voltage, power and AC/DC on the label.

For most of us, that already have these units installed in our houses, are there reason to worry?

I am nowhere near 10A on any of my switches or dimmers, which hopefully makes it OK in my house, but I am however a little bit worried seeing the manufacturer fails on following both directly safety related instructions and simple tasks as labeling the product correctly. Can Fibaro be trusted?

[speedy 64]

You are assuming that the Swedish Authority is using the EU compliance guidelines for their decision. I don't.

Well, they do.

They use EN standards in the the test, not SS-EN.

That's what it says in the report.

[Dalle1985 15]

Honestly, I wouldn't be worried. The 1,6 mm is most probably the terminals - really, these aren't suited for mains installation and honestly I was a bit surprised when I received my first dimmer. HOWEVER, the issue isn't that the terminals are unsafe, but they shouldn't be used for this sort of application.

But if they have been installed correctly and there is a good connection between wire and terminal, then there should be no problem. I've installed a few dimmers directly in lamps and have used soft multicore wires there, as they give a better connection and are better suited for this type of terminal, but in many european countries, these soft wires aren't allowed for installation purposes.

[Lauri 6]

Well, it seems that many Z-wave inwall switches and dimmers have then same issue with terminals.

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Only one I know who has greater distance between live wires is aeotec, but they have very small terminals for switch which makes connection alittle bit annoying but is doable.

So it seems that sweden has something against Fibaro or someone is pushing them to act against fibaro devices. If this is true about terminals then most of the z-wave inwall swithces should be banned all over the europe.

About the terminals - it seems that these terminals are widely sold as 16A terminals with no problem:

Edit: I opened one of the dimmers and it uses DG301 screw terminal which is stated as 15A and 300V so no problem here. If they use same terminal with fgs211 then it can be an issue between user manual and terminal size. But for me it seems they use green terminal with fgs211 and it should be ok with 16A as well.

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[speedy 64]

Honestly, I wouldn't be worried. The 1,6 mm is most probably the terminals - really, these aren't suited for mains installation and honestly I was a bit surprised when I received my first dimmer.

The issue with the dimmer (or all 230V fibaro products) is not the terminals. (This is only a problem on the 3kW relay where it says that it's ok to use for a load of 16A)

EN 50428:2005 clause 23 has to do with the distance between a live (L) 230V wire and a SELV/PELV circuit (less than 50V)

So my guess is that its the distance in the dimmer between the Z-wave circuit (low voltage) and the live wires (230V) in the dimmer is to small.

Printed to close to each other on the circuit bord perhaps?

All 230V fibaro devices are now removed from suppliers here..

[Guest lochnesz]

Lauri, what we know is that the Fibaro dimmer and relay switch doesn't comply with the applicable regulations according to the report. Other manufacturers products may or may not comply - but this issue is about the report stating that Fibaro's products are non-compliant. You may or may not be correct about that other manufacturer's products might also be non-compliant, but that doesn't change this report, nor does it make this situation better.

The National Electrical Safety Board ban cheap Chinese products quite often for being non-compliant with regulation. They have no commercial interest, and are working for Swedish Ministry of Industry.

If the National Electrical Safety Board for some reason are wrong, then Fibaro should present proof of this asap to minimize the damage, we'll see if they do that. Until then, we must assume that the report is correct.

[speedy 64]

If the National Electrical Safety Board for some reason are wrong, then Fibaro should present proof of this asap to minimize the damage, we'll see if they do that. Until then, we must assume that the report is correct.

They (Fibaro) where notified 2014-09-01 of the situation, after that they had 2 months of correspondences until the ban.

So if Fibaro had proof my guess is that the proof would be presented to stop the ban.

The nesb doesn't just ban a product, it talks to the suppliers first.

All the info is on the nesb homepage.

[JanJoh 1]

Honestly, I wouldn't be worried. The 1,6 mm is most probably the terminals - really, these aren't suited for mains installation and honestly I was a bit surprised when I received my first dimmer. HOWEVER, the issue isn't that the terminals are unsafe, but they shouldn't be used for this sort of application.

But if they have been installed correctly and there is a good connection between wire and terminal, then there should be no problem. I've installed a few dimmers directly in lamps and have used soft multicore wires there, as they give a better connection and are better suited for this type of terminal, but in many european countries, these soft wires aren't allowed for installation purposes.

I disagree about e terminals, they have enough spacing. I believe the issue is the same as in the wall plugs, that the spacing between mains parts and non mains parts is insufficient.

Now, before someone says "there is not 3mm spacing BETWEEN the blocks in the terminals" let me stop you and say that there does not need to be when there is insulation between the parts (in this case the plastic wall between each block) as long as that spacing can pass the arc/temp tests, you can run zero spacing for main carrying parts.

But yes, I fully agree that they are unsuitable for this type of application, I would like a terminal with much more depth and holding force.

[UrSv 6]

I don't think they are concerned about the distance where the plastic is but rather on the PCB where the distance is a bit too short. The terminals have 5 mm spacing so I cannot see how any other manufacturer could have a much larger distance though. As mentioned earlier.