Fibaro Universal Dimmer withdrawn?

[j.nowacki 5]

Swedish procedure states that we are allowed to post our appeal within three weeks, hence issued report can be subject to the changes that will follow our own investigation in that matter. We would like to emphasize once more that all our products are safe both for users and their homes.

[fergalmccarthy 5]

And I would like to say that you are in no position to categorically say that. It was not banned for no reason. That is your opinion that they are safe. The Swedish authority does not seem to agree with you and given that is there job, i'm more inclined to take there word over Fibaro at this point in time. My own electrician raised concerns over the relay modules and he did no testing, he just observed what he thought to be excessive heat from the module.

Are you saying that the Wall Plug is also safe ? My understanding is that this is still banned on safety grounds.

[Guest gembrain]

My own electrician raised concerns over the relay modules and he did no testing, he just observed what he thought to be excessive heat from the module.

Was this definitely a relay module getting hot and not a dimmer?

I can't see any logical reason why a relay would get particularly hot.

[KristianO 15]

Response from the Swedish National Electrical Safety Board:

Legal aspect

The Electrical Safety Authority has put the decision based on the product does not meet the requirements of the EU Regulation on Electrical and Electrical Safety Authority regulations. With that kind of product has flaws, the Safety Board determined that it is proportionate to make a decision against the importer to Sweden to stop selling the product and take it back from the dealer who has it in stock.

Traders who sold the product should reflect on their responsibilities. Possibly it extends beyond the Electrical Safety Authority's decision making.

You can as a consumer under the Consumer Protection (1990: 932) complain about the product at the retailer where you purchased the product. Consumer Agency has a guide that can help you when an item you purchased is defective.

Technical aspect

There may be several reasons flashover

1. Encrypt / air distance is too short

2. The voltage difference over the distance is too high

3. Something the distance shrinks. Dirt, dust, moisture, salt air, etc., the distance shrink.

The test shows that the 1.6 mm and 1.8 mm (it was different for the two products) does not lead to flashovers on a new product. When the creep distance is just under 60% of what it should be has probably spent a large part of the safety margin is available in the 3 mm. Electrical Safety Board can not comment on what happens when the product is installed and has been used for some time.

Translation by Google translate.

[Guest gembrain]

Swedish procedure states that we are allowed to post our appeal within three weeks, hence issued report can be subject to the changes that will follow our own investigation in that matter. We would like to emphasize once more that all our products are safe both for users and their homes.

Well on the 3 week deadline you've got another 10 days to get this report changed.

If the tests have been done to EU standards and you can't show that the test is wrong then I can't see how you can do anything other than withdraw the products from market.

I don't see that an electrician with knowledge of this report would be able to sign off on an installation that contained parts not meeting EU standards.

[MalvinYNJ 4]

Hi guys,

Anyone faced dimmer module hibernation mode before?

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[speedy 64]

Swedish procedure states that we are allowed to post our appeal within three weeks, hence issued report can be subject to the changes that will follow our own investigation in that matter. We would like to emphasize once more that all our products are safe both for users and their homes.

Well on the 3 week deadline you've got another 10 days to get this report changed.

If the tests have been done to EU standards and you can't show that the test is wrong then I can't see how you can do anything other than withdraw the products from market.

I don't see that an electrician with knowledge of this report would be able to sign off on an installation that contained parts not meeting EU standards.

It's been 10+ weeks already..

They (Fibaro) where notified 2014-09-01 of the situation, after that they had 2 months of correspondences until the ban.

So if Fibaro had proof my guess is that the proof would be presented to stop the ban.

The nesb doesn't just ban a product, it talks to the suppliers first.

All the info is on the nesb homepage.

[fergalmccarthy 5]

Which would indicate that like the wall socket, that also has not been re-instated in Sweden as far as I know, that these dimmer and relay modules will not be re-instated. The only conclusion that can be drawn from this, is that these modules do not comply with EU standards and do pose an inherent risk.

[ Added: 2014-11-20, 09:34 ]

@Fibaro , are we to assume you have not been able to provide any proof to contradict the findings of the Swedish board and that the products are not only Non Compliant with EU standards, but that they are dangerous !

I am sure if you had of been able to provide this proof, you would be making a song and dance about it, but there are many concerned users waiting on a response. I for one will be returning every module that has been banned and I'm sure others will follow unless you can provide proof that the Swedish Board are incorrect and your products are safe.

[budda 5]

In a some what related information one of my Fibaro Dimmer modules had a meltdown this month. More details posted at

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[TimJWatts 4]

EN 50428:2005 clause 23 has to do with the distance between a live (L) 230V wire and a SELV/PELV circuit (less than 50V)

So my guess is that its the distance in the dimmer between the Z-wave circuit (low voltage) and the live wires (230V) in the dimmer is to small.

I don't think it can be that. The control circuit does not have to be SELV - because it is fully contained and radio linked. It could run off a reactive dropper direct from the mains. As do the internal circuits of simple knob dimmers (triac/diac/potentiometer).

If this device had some SELV terminals for maybe a remote push button (and advertised as SELV) or it sported a "volt free relay" output or produced a SELV power supply for a remote device like the NEST thermostat/timer does, then I'd agree. But this is an all mains device.

3mm is normally specified as the minimum acceptable contact separation for "isolators" - those are switches that provide safe isolation of live parts so you can go grab the dead side and feel fully assured the switch is not going to flash over with a mains spike or do something else undesirable.

But I am wondering if this has hit some other regulation to do with preventing a device from spontaneously combusting due to flash over?

As the risk of electrocution is very minimal in a lighting circuit due to switch problems (you would open the MCB or remove the main circuit fuse before doing any invasive work) this seems more like a possible fire issue?

[speedy 64]

EN 50428:2005 clause 23 has to do with the distance between a live (L) 230V wire and a SELV/PELV circuit (less than 50V)

This is why it was banned so this is certainly the problem.

And its not an all mains device.

The FGS221 for example can control a separate SELV circuit with 24V.

The distance between the 230V and the SELV circuit is to small so you could end up with 230V jumping into your SELV circuit.

But this is not the only reason, the dimmer is an all mains device so thats why i figured the mains and z-wave circuit must be the problem there.

[TimJWatts 4]

EN 50428:2005 clause 23 has to do with the distance between a live (L) 230V wire and a SELV/PELV circuit (less than 50V)

I understand that. I would argue there is NO justification for it being required to be classed as a SELV or PELV circuit.

What is the *need*? The ELV parts of the circuit are not user accessible. the fact that the microcontroller parts happen to run at ELV levels is irrelevant. To take this to extreme logic, if the circuit were fabricated with vacuum tubes it would certainly not be ELV - and yet, are vacuum tube amplifiers banned?

I've lost track a little - did the Swedish board specifically cite EN 50428:2005 clause 23 or are we conjecturing that?

[speedy 64]

EN 50428:2005 clause 23 has to do with the distance between a live (L) 230V wire and a SELV/PELV circuit (less than 50V)

The FGS221 for example can control a separate SELV circuit with 24V.

[TimJWatts 4]

EN 50428:2005 clause 23 has to do with the distance between a live (L) 230V wire and a SELV/PELV circuit (less than 50V)

The FGS221 for example can control a separate SELV circuit with 24V.

OK - I can buy that for the relay module if it claims to provide a fully isolated volt free output.

Although personally, I prefer such modules to have such terminals a decent physical distance (preferably the other side of the device) to their mains terminals - but that's me and not the regulations.

But I cannot see how this applies to the dimmer.

If this were the case, could Fibaro reclassify the device as "not SELV"? In reality I would expect, for a regular installation, anyone using this to switch upstream of the the SELV PSUs anyway rather than on the (extra) low voltage side - however, I can see some scenarios where they might want to switch, perhaps several banks of LEDs powered by a single PSU.

[speedy 64]

I've lost track a little - did the Swedish board specifically cite EN 50428:2005 clause 23

Yes, direct information from Swedish safety board.

Well to add more info, clause 23 also includes creepage distance, and for 250V 3mm is required.

So this might be the thing with the dimmer (and all other products using only 230V)?

Minimum 3 mm between L and N.

[TimJWatts 4]

That sounds plausible.

Does that change if the whole thing is potted - as I notice one of the competitor products is?

[speedy 64]

Well, the standard talks about "basic", "standard", "double", "supplementary" and "reinforced" insulation.

Now i don't know whats what here, might be impossible

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/emoticons/default_icon_smile.gif" alt=":-)" /> , but there might be a difference.

I think i know what type of product you talk about thougt.

From what i have seen the insulation is only one sided, what about the backside?

Would be nice to see one opened up.. any takers?

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[TimJWatts 4]

OK - with respect to normal wires in a backbox behind (say) a switch - those have basic insulation on the cores and supplementary insulation by way of the cable sheath (unless it's "singles" in conduit). Basic insulation in a metal enclosure requires the enclosure to be earthed (aka "Class I").

Double insulation applies when you have two layers of insulation between your finger and the live parts aka "Class II".

Reinforced insulation is insulation that is sufficiently strong that a single layer is sufficient (effectively - not sure what the book definition is).

What did you mean by "one sided" and "backside"?

- On an aside there is actually a "Class 0" for devices, but you would not be able to buy any now (except on ebay). Old style Xmas fairy lights from the 70's and earlier - basic insulation only on the flex. Modern ones look the same but if you cut the wires you will actually find they are green insulated wire sheathed with another green sleeve (typically).