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Best way to include already installed modules


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Imagine you have set up a house with hundred modules and one HC2 over the last year. About two third of your modules are clued/sticked to their place (like most of the door/window sensors that are available).

 

To exclude/include them to your controller they must be in direct close range to it. So you will have to remove them from their place by destroying the clue most likely.

Is there any better and easier way to reinclude these devices without buying 100m power cable and 100m network cable moving the HC2 controller from module to module?

 

Is it possible to use another modules with controller capabilities that is battery operated to do the ex/-include job?

 

Once I had to reinclude some window door sensors and I have hated it to detach them from their position and reattach them. In some cases they did not stick as well as before and tamper alarm went on or the sensor did not show the right status after a couple of days.

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Hi,

 

I think this is the job of NWI - Network Wide Inclusion. Not sure whether the powered device needs to be a Gen 5 device for that to work though. Could be.. 

Anyway, I see that my NodON remote also has an "INCLUSION ON BEHALF OF THE GATEWAY" that may be of help to you. Never tried it myself though, but it might be worth checking out.

 

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I tried already the NWI with door sensor Gen5 by Fibaro but I was not successfully.

It started the inclusion process but after about 30  minutes I stopped it because there was no progress anymore.

About using NodOn or keyfob I was thinking about already, but did not try it. Also I am not sure if I can easily move the included device from the NodOn to my HC2 (if I have to??).

 

Is there somebody who tried this successfully?

 

 

Edited by Alex
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Just now, akatar said:

just pick up youre hc2 and bring it to the device you want to incude

That's why I have written "Is there any better and easier way to reinclude these devices without buying 100m power cable and 100m network cable moving the HC2 controller from module to module?" ;)

 

 

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1 minute ago, Alex said:

That's why I have written "Is there any better and easier way to reinclude these devices without buying 100m power cable and 100m network cable moving the HC2 controller from module to module?" ;)

 

 

aaah didn't read the whole story, sorry

 

 

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8 minutes ago, RH_Dreambox said:

Do you really need network connection to include / exclude devices? 

I think so. Somehow I will have to tell HC2 to do an in- or exclude. Only thing I could do would be a direct connection between laptop and HC2, but so I have to carry two devices...

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There's a button on the back, to start inclusion and the 5th led gives feedback. No ethernet needed. I have done that to include one or two modules that were out of reach.

Edited by petergebruers
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1 minute ago, petergebruers said:

There's a button on the back, to start inclusion and the 4th led gives feedback. No ethernet needed. I have done that to include one or two modules that were out of reach.

Thanks, I did not know this. But this will get a little bit complicated after including 20 equal devices later on... ;-)

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No ethernet needed.

OK, then you can include devices without ethernet. And if you want to exclude then you have to do factory reset on the device before including again.

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So this would be one possibility. I can live with this.

But is there any other?

Is it possible to connect the antenna with an 30m cable? Or is it possible to use another device for doing this job?

 

(It is Saturday and it is raining, I have lots of timer tho think about this right now ;-))

Edited by Alex
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I have never seen this exact number, but inclusion distance can be 10-15 meter indoors. It does not have to be closer than that, if it works, it's good. Closer is not necessarily better. 
Exception: secure inclusion (door locks) is max 1, maybe 2 meter. This is radio transmission going on and the exact numbers depend on noise, antenna, activity on the network, Z-Wave plus and so on. So if yo have a few modules out of reach from the controller, you might be able to include them in on go, from a carefully chosen location.

 

Reset or exclusion (on your NEW or OLD controller) are both possible. If you can have ethernet, exclusion is sometimes easier. From my memory, reset on a FGS-222 involves cutting the power and holding the B button. Exclusion is simply setting your new (old) controller to "exclusion mode" and performing 3 clicks on S1.

 

Extending the antenna might be a good idea, you can buy extension cords on aliexpress (but expect 6 weeks delivery time)... The transmission of the waves is in straight line (with some parts reflected) so metal objects, walls, concrete floors all attenuate the signal. If you can find a clearer, more direct path between HC2 and module, that might help. But if you'r module is, let's say, 30 m away indoors, you'd need 15 m of high performance coax extension cord. I'll have to look it up, but I think the net gain could be quite low! This is transmission at 868,4 MHz, that's UHF. For people on a coax network, you might know that to extend your television network, you need high performance coax cable (think: large diameter and very stiff) and here in Flandres you are advised not to add more than 30 meter... That cable would be a lot more expensive than a UTP or STP ethernet cable!

 

In theory, a second controller with a battery *could* work. But I've never tried it. Well, I have, once, added a RaZberry as a secondary controller. Can't remember . Of course, a RaZberry isn't battery operated, but I'd bet you can run one of 2 LiIon batteries in series. But I quickly "undid" the secondary controller thing. The other option might be an Aeotec Z-Stick Plus connected to a laptop, running your favourite Z-Wave software. But I can't say I've read many good things on this forum regarding the implementation of a secondary controller. To be tested, but be prepared to do a full recovery ;-).


See this topic from another user that tried a RaZberry:

One last thing: regarding inclusion and the functioning of large networks, these are the keywords you need to learn about: SIC (Static ID Server), SUC (Static Update Controller) and "Explorer Frames".

 

 

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Thank a lot for your answer, Peter!

 

On 5.11.2016 at 11:49 AM, petergebruers said:

you'd need 15 m of high performance coax extension cord. I'll have to look it up, but I think the net gain could be quite low! This is transmission at 868,4 MHz, that's UHF. For people on a coax network, you might know that to extend your television network, you need high performance coax cable (think: large diameter and very stiff) and here in Flandres you are advised not to add more than 30 meter... That cable would be a lot more expensive than a UTP or STP ethernet cable

So a cable like this one (www.amazon.com/Cable-Matters-Wall-Shielded-Coaxial/dp/B00ESG5W96/ or https://www.alarmgrid.com/products/honeywell-7626-50hc or http://www.atel-electronics.eu/produkt.php?hash=05299) won't work very well? I am everything but an expert in radio frequency.

The Laptop with Z-Wave-USB-Stick or Battery operated Z-Wave Device in combination with smartphone would be the easiest way. I hoped this will work somehow. (maybe I should buy a second controller to do some tests with this scenario. I do not want to destroy my running system...).

 

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The RG6 cable is a rigid cable (it has a single conductor in the middle) used for fixed TV installations. It doesn't have the right connector for your HC2, its diameter is larger. But it's a good low loss cable. I have a data-sheet from Bedea, they make quality cable. At the frequency of Z-Wave, it dissipates roughly 30 dB of your signal per 100 meter. So for 30 m that's 10 dB. The question is... Does the better reception/transmission due to the better placement of the antenna offset this loss? I don't know. And it's difficult to test for me, because I live in a small house. I cannot go far enough, to get really bad reception. Otherwise, I could test some similar cable to see what we can expect. Sorry I can't be more precise. But compare it to a satellite dish. They put a converter and amplifier close to the dish, then send the signal down a cable. It wouldn't work if you took the signal from the dish (and converted it, to make a faire comparison at the same frequency), then amplified it at the other end of the cable.

 

Regarding the the secondary controller... I might be able to do a test with a Z-Stick and a laptop. But it's raining, and I have to go out on the street to get bad enough reception from my HC2 :-)

 

A "secondary controller" is a limited thing in any case... Even if you have one, wake up messages of battery operated device still go to the controller they are bound to. And also, specifically true for Z-Wave plus but also for som older modules, you can only have one controller in the reporting group (aka "lifeline" aka "group 1"). So it's not like having a back-up controller of some sort.

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3 minutes ago, petergebruers said:

A "secondary controller" is a limited thing in any case... Even if you have one, wake up messages of battery operated device still go to the controller they are bound to. And also, specifically true for Z-Wave plus but also for som older modules, you can only have one controller in the reporting group (aka "lifeline" aka "group 1"). So it's not like having a back-up controller of some sort.

Wouldn't it be possible to move these devices afterwards to the main controller?

 

I think I will try and get a proper cable somewhere for testing. If it works I will keep it.

 

Yes, the rain forecast looks terrible here too.

 

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